Just lost it with DCs, I can't cope with any more f***ing poo

[iwouldgoouttonight]

DS, age 6, never been reliably dry or clean since potty training, pants wet every day, poos in pants couple of times a week. Been several times to doctor, referred to hospital, scans on kidneys and bladder, nothing wrong with them. Now being referred to enurologist (sp?) to see if she can help. Also waiting for appt with school nurse continence team on 21st Dec.

Have tried reward charts, drinking more, alarm to remind him to go, Eric, nothing works.

Told him he can't go to friends after school because I can't expect other parents to change him or risk having him wee on their sofa. He doesn't seem bothered.

Just picked him up after school and he'd had to be changed twice, once after wee in pants and once after poo. Then got home and he had only been inside for less than ten minutes, I was in kitchen trying to wash his filthy clothes, went back into living room and both him and DD (age 3) had pooed in their pants. DD had been reliably dry/clean for about a year until recently when she has for some reason started to occasionally poo in her pants.

I just lost it, yelled at them both that they know full well that you do not poo in pants and if they do it again I will be very angry. They both looked terrified and burst into tears.

I've cleaned them up and apologised for shouting but said i'm still cross and upset that I have to clean their poo up.

I'm just fed up of it, I don't seem to be able to remain calm about it any more, why can't they just use the toilet?? Why do hospital referrals take months?? Why does my house smell permanently of wee?? Where have we gone so wrong???

[myhandslooksoold]

Well done Bonsoir I can't believe we hadn't all thought of that. There we are everybody, the problem has been solved. Any other smug advice out there? We'd love to hear it.

[hawthers]

Sorry don't have any advice and definitely not any pointing out the bleeding obvious but just wanted to offer my sympathy.

Only thing I'd do is if you are waiting ages for an appointment then ring up them daily frequently to see if they have any cancellations, get the name of the consultant etc who you would see and try ringing them or their secretary directly or try contacting pals (patient advisory liaison service I think it stands for). Get them on side and they might be able to lobby on your behalf to get yhe referrals speeded up. make yourself a pain on their arse to get them to help you sooner. In the meantime lots of

[3littlefrogs]

Indeed.

Bonsoir, this is a very distressing and complex problem.

The op has been trying to deal with this for over 2 years.

She has been badly let down by the professionals who should have helped her, and your post is only going to make her feel ten times worse.

A proper diagnosis made by someone who knows what they are doing, is the first step. Then a proper treatment plan with support in place is essential.

OP keep fighting for the proper help you need.

I am sure that there are support/advice organisations out there. Maybe someone else will know?

[GrimAndHumourless]

yes agree sounds like classic constipation, impaction with overflow

press for clinic referral

lots of GPs fail to take this seriously

[iwouldgoouttonight]

Thanks all again, it really helps to have this support because it feels as though we're the only people going through this in RL and it's a difficult thing to talk about/explain to people.

I have resorted to throwing pants away because sometimes I just can't face the smell and disgustingness of having to try and get the poo out. DS gets upset when I throw them away, even if they are just cheap plain ones, and once after he'd chosen some new ones with star wars characters on them he tried really hard not to dirty them. It lasted about a week but then he reverted back.

On a more positive note I phoned the hospital again this morning to ask when we might eventually get our next appt. I was fobbed off last time I phoned and they just said they were two months behind with appts, so this time I managed to be a bit more forceful and pointed out that we'd been waiting five months and she has booked us in for 12 Dec. Still a month away but at least we have a date. I also have the direct line of the consultant we're going to see.

DS is poorly today so we're snuggling up on the sofa watching Alvin and the chipmunks (awful film!). We were up a lot in the night because he has a bad cough and a temperature and at about 5am he shouted me and asked if I'd go with him to the toilet because he need a poo. I was full of praise for him, but now feeling frustrated- he can feel when he needs to go to the toilet sometimes but why not the rest of the time???!

[GrimAndHumourless]

the nerves get de-sensitised over time, because the bowel and sometimes anus get stretched, so the sensation can disappear IYSWIM, hence the not-knowing-they-need-to-go

I would place a LOT of money on him being backed up to maybe his nipples if you can picture that, a scan will show how far

masses of support on here, ask/rant, we are here

[accessorizequeen]

Oh god you have my upmost sympathy, it is hideous. Ds1 has been soiling since he was 3, he's turning 9 next month ds2 (5.11) is soiling regularly after he's ill so trying to figure out whether that's copying or a digestive issue or something else. Ds3 (4) PT 6 months ago but regularly pooing and weeing in pants. There are days when within 15 mins all 3 have done something and I either cry or yell. Sometimes both. And wonder what I have done wrong as a mother. It helps to know I am not the only one in this position. Ds2 wets bed at night and I get so cross about the washing when with 4 dc I have lots anyway.

Long long saga but I too have been let down by long waiting times and consultants who don't seem very interested or bothered. Ds1 was only xrayed for first time last week fgs and they found an impaction.
I think bonsoir got a flaming but actually sitting a few times a day is one of the things paed will suggest and IMO it does make quite a difference. Proper sitting, in the right position, after meals for 15 mins that is. In combination with movicol if necessary. You really have to fight to get heard and seen and dp & I both feel let down by the system. I get better advice sometimes on here than in surgery or hospital. I have found that paying the younger 2 boys seems to rapidly motivate them btw when nothing else did

[iwouldgoouttonight]

Lol at paying them to go to the toilet! I will try anything!

Paediatrician and school nurse have both told us about sitting on toilet regularly which we try to get him to do, eg he always has to try for a poo after breakfast before school. But he will sit there in correct position for ten minutes, even sometimes blowing balloons up, but nothing happens and we can't physically force poo out of him! I also worry that the amount of times we tell him to sit on the toilet is making it into even more of an issue for him because he gets so upset about it.

[iwouldgoouttonight]

Sorry accessorizequeen, hope that didn't sound as though I was dismissing your advice, didn't mean it to sound like that. I think i'm just thinking aloud about the things we've tried and how it seems to have turned from a possible physical problem into an emotional/behavioural issue for all of us.

[EscapeInTheCity]

Iwould
Just want to symptatize with you and pants covered in poo. We've had that for years too with ds2...

ds2 was chronically constipated. No hard stools, just very large 'normal looking' ones every 3 days or so. Plus issues with wetting himself (I think his bowels were so full that it was pressing on his bladder ifswim). And soiling.
He has no feeling of when he was soiling himself incl v heavy soiling.

Paed, etc... didn't change a thing.

In the end, what worked for us was chinese medicine. We went to see a qualified herbalist wo also had a speciality for treating children. It took a few months but soiling got less and less until it disappeared completely. As soiling got less, wetting disappeared too.
Maybe worth a try?

[accessorizequeen]

No problems. Is he actually on movicol at present tho? A HV suggested ds was allowed his DSi on the toilet and its been a lot easier to get him to sit since then. You do end up doing anything don't you? Our family life has suffered, there's no doubt it has a huge impact. And then there's worrying about progress at school, bullying, don't feel you can go out as much and sporting activities can be impossible. I'm just getting better after 2years of depression, this has been a huge factor. We are now trying to get referral for psych (had tried twice before with no joy) for ds1 as its clear he has behavioural issues and my paed father has suggested perceptive issues may be responsible. That was last week's bombshell I'm still trying to deal with. thank god it's Friday wine in fridge and Ben & jerrys in freezer

[HullyEastergully]

Can they not wear pull-ups until the source of the problem is found so that at least clothes and bedding aren't constantly destroyed?

My ds had enuresis until he was 10/11 and he wore pull-ups in bed at night and I had bed mats on there too.

and hugs.

[accessorizequeen]

My boys don't want to wear pull-ups at school. Too much for them.ds1 did have to resort to them last week as the movicol dose was so high poo was dribbling down his legs. I use bed mats and pull-ups for ds2 at night he still wets the bed!! What eventually solved the problem for your ds, hully?

[HullyEastergully]

No, but they could wear them at home at least. He just grew out of it in the end, it slowly grew less and less and then stopped altogether. My dbros were the same and apparently it does commonly run in families.

[3littlefrogs]

accessorizequeen:

"Ds1 was only xrayed for first time last week fgs and they found an impaction"

This is exactly the problem and is so common.

A plain abdominal Xray is such a quick, simple thing to do, and would show up an impaction easily. It is really awful the way children suffer and parents are fobbed off.

The longer the problem goes on, the worse it gets and the longer it takes to treat.

My GP told me the treatment takes at least as long as the problem has existed, and usually twice as long.

It took 2 years to get dd back into a normal bowel function pattern after an anal fissure and witholding/impaction episode that lasted about 6 weeks.

Thank goodness I have a lovely, knowledgeable GP.

Absolute nightmare to get an appointment though....the good ones are always popular.

[Indith]

AQ my dear I just want to give you a hug :(

I agree it is so hard to get anyone to really understand. Ds1 was at first given lactulose and we were told to keep upping the dose until he was trying to withold liquid, it was horrible. Thankfully I eventually stumbled upon a lovely GP who took me seriously and suggested a completely different tactic and we used fybogel to bulk it out and increase the sensation of needing to go then because he was still only going every 3 days with than and days 2 and 3 got progressively worse with wetting and soiling we added senna. On that mixture he starting doing a poo a day. e had to be very stric on routine and doing wees which resulted in a lot of tantrums. We found sitting on the loo for a poo after dinner before bath worked best for us as there was no rush to go to school and we read books etc.He still almost always goes then but goes at other times too. I still get so happy when he recognoses he needs to go! Wees are around 80% routine "go for a wee before dinner/before we leave the house" and 20% going himself BUT most days his pants have obviously been dribbled in and his trousers smell of wee so we are far from perfect but at least we are good enough to pass off fine at school etc.

AQ I'm interested you mentioned soiling after being ill. Dd is like that. I know it started with attention/power struggle because she knew how frustrated we got with ds1 but we bribed with stickers recently and the whole of October was accident free then she had a sick bug at half term and so far in November we've only had 1 accident free day from her :(. Normally wetting but some soiling. Some foods seem to be triggers for her, eg she can't have too much sweetcorn or she spends the next day pooing madly.

[accessorizequeen]

It kind of feels like a secret you've been hiding for years and then you're allowed to talk about it on here
Waves at Indith, big hug to you too
It's so interesting about running in families Hully given several of us on here having issues with more than one child. I cannot tease about what the issues are because with ds1 at least it's not just this. I've suspected Aspergers for a while but have to adjust to a different diagnosis if psych agrees with one put forward by paed. Still don't know what the outcome might be for soiling after all of that. You feel so embedded in the daily crap literally it's hard to take a step back. Your routine sounds most admirable Indith, all with little sleep for years!
Frogs, I agree it is so disappointing when nhs lets you down with even the basics. I send dp now for the appointments as he's so much more assertive!

[HullyEastergully]

It really annoys me that people have to feel bad about it. It is the same as any other physical condition. It is no one's fault and it is not shameful.

[Indith]

Routine saves some of the shouting.

Hully I want to kiss you for the info about things running in families. I often wonder if it is us, if it is our diet, something we do, the way we potty trained. Just something about US. But families does make sense.

Ds2 is 8 months and eating larger amounts of food now. When he weaned we seemed to go straight from bf poo to fully formed with no weaning food filled cowpats in between. He strained and strained and was obviously very constipated. He also had the sick bug when dd did so jsut milk for a while and eventually, all of a sudden while I was wiggling a poo half out of his bottom trying to stimulated him to push again and get it shiften is ALL came out. And I mean mountains of it. It was jet propelled and I ended up with a pile of poo as big as my fist which was followed by large amounts of squitty poo. I was flabbergasted and also very upset I had not taken him to see the GP before then althoug I had been planning on taking him to baby clinic when he got ill but we actually ended up in hospital with the bug and I mentioned the constipation several times but nobody wanted to know.

Since then we went back on food very slowly and things have been better, we have had more normal weaning type poos but he has just started fully formed again so I am really nervous and watching him like a hawk to make sure we have a daily, decently sized poo without too much trouble. He seems to be sensitive to dairy, he can handle small amounts but if you give him yoghurt for example he is unsettled that night and gets constipated the next day.

[accessorizequeen]

Oh Indith poor little mite. We got somewhere with ds1 when we cut down on his dairy intake but paed last week said it shouldn't make a difference. So now I don't know. Argh. Come to think of it, dd gets quite constipated tho never soils. I can't keep track of it all, my depression and ds1's behaviour problems seem to muddle my head.
Hully, I see what you mean. But other people don't see it as just another problem as with mental health. And my confidence is such that I feel completely judged and found wanting at the school gate anyway. I try to be upfront with friends and parents of dc's friends but as for the wider community I want to hide under a rock.

[Indith]

We got somewhere with ds1 when we followed Jabber's advice and went to goat milk/cheese. It definitely made a difference. After several months we gradually reintroduced cows milk.

I think what gets me is that even though most people are understanding they still say things like "oh well some just take a bit longer/forget to go to the loo" or other comments along those lines like they just have toilet training niggles and you just want to yell that it is a medical issue not being lazy, that asking them if they need a wee won't work you need to TELL them that they need a wee.

Having had a poo roughly the same length as the baby this afternoon after 3 days of straining since he last had yoghurt I am not giving him any more dairy and booking an appointment with the GP. My 8 month old who eats mainly fruit and veg and prunes should not be giving himself piles and fissures.

[Jingleflobba]

Total sympathy here, we had a terrible time with this, DC got tested for diabetes and got poked and prodded everywhere poor thing. Fortunatly it seems to have sorted itself out now, we haven't had an episode for months touch wood but have a hug, it can be soul destroying x

[MoelFammau]

Can he actually 'feel' when he needs to go?

I had issues as a child with wetting the bed and it only stopped when I hit puberty . I wasn't taken to a doctor though. My DM had the idea that hitting me, shouting at me and forcing me to hand wash and hand wring the sheets was the way forward.

I never could feel when I needed to go until it was too late. And it got better... and then I had a lousy birth experience where DD slammed through my bladder and I'm back to not feeling anything.

[Rudolphstolemycarrots]

if you think he is doing it on purpose, put him in nappies.

[3littlefrogs]

There is an excellent article in this weeks British Medical Journal about this. It is surprisingly common. Hopefully some of the people who have been fobbing you off will read it OP.