Liz Truss and aimless toddlers

[BoffinMum]

So, Liz Truss reckons toddlers are running around pointlessly in too many nurseries. She says it's due to lack of structure in miseries.

Anyone spotted this happening?

[inthewildernessbuild]

I remember reading that children who are anxious will run around aimlessly in a nursery setting, rather than engage in any particular purposeful activity. Perhaps she is referring to this. That for some small children, an unstructured noisy setting will create anxiety. As in "running amok".

I think we can all see the difference between a toddler "busy busy busy" running around, trying something and then something else, and using their skills, physical or practical, and a toddler just running crazily about the place and rushing up to other children, hitting them, snatching toys. That is a stressed toddler.

I think there is obviously a balance between vigorous exercise and concentration in all toddler settings! A 2-3 year who never sat still at all in a nursery would not be having a very good time or learning much from the company of others.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Is it even a true and accurate observation anyway ?

I think not, mainly because the activity is generally very purposeful if you take the time to observe carefully and engage with the children eg. asking them about their play and purposes.

[Squarepebbles]

Erm I read somewhere that 57% of French parents admit to smacking,they're stricter as a nation with children and I suspect that has more to with it.

Given that I also read that French teenage behaviour aint that hot not sure why the French way is being held up as something we should all emulate.

[ReallyTired]

I think that the Early Years Foundation Stage curriculum where everything is child led should not be treated as a holy grail. My son went to nursery before the early years foundation stage and had more structure than dd. I think that the fashion of "learning EVERYTHING through play" does children no favours.

Children need lots of play, but they don't only need play. It does no harm for a child to have a mixture of adult led and child led activites. A bit of structure gives young children a concept of time. Often children like the big people to be in control.

It is good for a child to learn to focus and master something difficult/ prehaps they don't want to do. Rich parents are able to send their children to pre preps and avoid the EYFS rubbish or they can send their children to nursery part time and do outside activites.

My daughter loves her swimming lesson, her gymnastics and music class. She has to concentrate and is mentally challenged. She has to listen, follow instructions and work to master new skills.

Rather than importing a pre school system from a different country I would prefer the government to look at research. New curriculums should be piloted from than forced on all the nurseries/ pre schools and child minders in the country. Its ironic that free schools and academies can opt out the national curriculum but private nurseries can't.

[MajaBiene]

There are lots of adult led activities in nurseries - it is part of the EYFS. Learning through play and following children's interests doesn't mean leaving them up to their own devices.

[Squarepebbles]

So basically Ms Truss wants a baby away from it's home environment being made to behave in a way that is alien to how he is raised at home. That is fine with older children but babies?

1. I think it's cruel and 2) how exactly are nursery workers supposed to get babies many of whom will still be in nappies,teething,missing home,not used to sharing with hoards of other toddlers to submit to the French way?
   
   Wonder how many French toddlers are still in nappies at 3.

[ReallyTired]

"There are lots of adult led activities in nurseries - it is part of the EYFS. Learning through play and following children's interests doesn't mean leaving them up to their own devices."

Dd had far too much being left too her own devices free play in her private nursery. She loves school nursery as she is mentally challenged. I think that a lot private nurseries and pre schools do not have the skills to implement the EYFS.

[slatternlymother]

reallytired I totally agree, you said it far better than I did

Square I wasn't trying to say we shouold emulate French parenting; far from it. It's just when people try to say 'oh, well in France the kids are soooo much better behaved...' it's not particularly informed, because of course if you put a little baby into a structured nursery environment from Day 1, it's going to be calmer in that environment when it's a toddler. You know?

[Squarepebbles]

At 2 Really?

[pnin]

I think she has decided that more structure + fewer adults = more cheap labour (ie women) in the workplace.

She is likely to be suffering confirmation bias when she visits a more structured adult-led setting. She's decided what she favours and is seeing what she wants to and ignoring what she doesn't (for example, more withdrawn children because they may be getting less one on one adult interaction). Her ideas hardly chime on current research, do they

That said, I have no problem with encouraging small children to sit still to listen and address others politely and to begin to take direction. from others. But children gain that from a variety of settings and also largely from a developing social sense -- at 2 years old that is sometimes a way away. But that's not what she is saying. Her wandering 'aimlessly' gives the game away.

[Squarepebbles]

When my bright dd was 2 she was happy trundling round with a buggy exploring and digging all day.

By 3 she went to pre- school and enjoyed a mixture of free and structured play.

[Squarepebbles]

What pnin said.

The only way to raise ratios is to have more docile kids.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Am just thinking maybe a small factor could be that she is a little older now though ReallyTired - children change so quickly in the under 5 age group ?
I think most people understand and accept that more structure can be introduced beneficially as children get older. Very little structure is that beneficial to babies in my experience - possibly the difference between night and day, regular nap times, and regular meal times as they are introduced to solids. The rest is pretty much all up for grabs !

[olivertheoctopus]

Are primary school teachers actually complaining that Reception kids ARE running around in a chaotic fashion and unable to sit still then?

[JuliaScurr]

"control" 23 2 year olds
good luck with that
tomorrow = 'herding cats' & 'nailing jelly to a wall'

[Squarepebbles]

Yes agree a routine re sleeping,eating and playing is beneficial (I couldn't have survived without one)however the playing bit imvho at 2 needs to involve a lot of freedom.I never had the terrible 2s with my 3 as they were given freedom to explore,play at their pace.

[JuliaScurr]

aren't small children meant to run around pointlessly?

[PetiteRaleuse]

pebbles I am currently potty training my DD who just turned two. To most people in France (ime) this is a little late. Nursery advised 20 months as being about right as a starting point, but some people have been going on at me since she turned one

Some schools accept children at two if they are potty trained, but most children start the Sptember following their 3rd birthday, and it is generally accepted that children (other than those with special needs etc) would be toilet trained by then. Those who aren't will start a bit later as they don't have the staff to deal with nappies etc in a school setting.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Thanks for making me laugh Julia

[MajaBiene]

ReallyTired - I agree about private nurseries. All children should have a place in a state nursery imo - but generally they are higher quality because they have more, high qualified, better paid staff than the private sector.

[Squarepebbles]

Hmmmm interesting,wonder how the need to change nappies in British nurseries will fit in with all this structured play and less staff.

They'll probably fine parents whose kids aren't out of nappies by 2

How much longer have we got with this lot?Given the timescale before they're booted out what could they actually implement?

[slatternlymother]

square I honestly think they'll get voted in again.

[ReallyTired]

Are British children happier than their French or Belgium counterparts? Are French teenagers worse than their British counterparts.

I feel that staff in school nurseries work smarter rather than harder than those in day nurseries. They are able to work smarter because the school employs cleaners and children who attend lunch time club are looked after by dinner ladies.

I think that nursery nurses looking after more children could work if they have a team of support staff. However support staff need to be paid so it more than slightly defeats the object of bringing down costs.

[ReallyTired]

"Am just thinking maybe a small factor could be that she is a little older now though ReallyTired - children change so quickly in the under 5 age group ?"

Dd attends state nursery in the afternoon and does two three hours mornings at the private nursery at the age of four. (she had her birthday last week)

I am taking her out of the private nursery as dd hates it with a passion. The day nursery say that dd has outgrown their setting which I find laughable as she is 48 months old and a day nursery should be able to cater for a child who is almost five years old!

[Lastofthepodpeople]

This is completely daft.
The current guidelines allow for a mix of structured activities and free play.
I would quite hope that my 2.5 year old gets to spend some time 'running around aimlessly'. He's a toddler, not an adult.