MNHQ here: keep council meetings accessible!

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Apologies for the determinedly unglamorous thread title - we've gathered you here today to talk about council meetings!

As some of you will know, during the pandemic local authorities (councils) were given permission to hold their meetings online. This not only gave the nation the chance to enjoy the proceedings of Handforth Parish Council: it also meant that everyone who otherwise found in-person attendance difficult - perhaps because they had mobility or health issues, or because they had caring responsibilities or young children - could take part (as a councillor) or watch (as a local voter) with no barriers.

Last week councils were told that these online or hybrid meetings will have to stop almost immediately, and that everyone has to return to holding meetings in person.

We think this is a bad move, and we've been busily collecting signatures from councillors who are also parents to add to our open letter to the relevant government minister, Robert Jenrick.

If you're a councillor who's also a parent - or you know someone who is - we'd love to add your name. You can co-sign by adding your name to this document.

If you're not a parent who's a councillor BUT you agree with us anyway please help by sharing our social posts (eg here on Twitter or here on Facebook) to help us get as many signatures as possible.

And if you need any more persuasion - Jackie Weaver agrees with us

Thanks
MNHQ

[newnortherner111]

So I cannot sit next to someone on a train but can do so at a council meeting? Or have to travel a distance to get to the meeting (think how far it is from one end of Suffolk to Ipswich as an example)?

Not reasonable until everyone has had both vaccinations.

[picklemewalnuts]

2m apart. Not next to.

[picklemewalnuts]

Like a work place.

[Icanflyhigh]

@NicolaDunsire

Icanflyhigh nothing has gone on the website since 2018! I think the website was run by a councillor who left under a cloud after a planning row...

Thanks picklemewalnuts

That's not good.

[21Flora]

I’m a Parish Clerk too and have spent today trying to figure out how we can hold a meeting safely. I’m too young to have had a vaccine but everyone else has had theirs which is so frustrating! The biggest hall we have access to will just fit the councillors and staff in, members of the public will have to sit under a gazebo outside. It’s madness.

[silverribbonxmastree]

I agree it's a pain. Fortunately some meetings (not convened under LGA 1972) can continue online such as licensing committees.

[picklemewalnuts]

Flora, have you checked out your local church? That's where we meet. High ceilings, good sized space.

[MrsHoneyman]

Meetings are not just attended by councillors but also by staff who support, clerk, present and advise.

Not sure why you are just asking councillors to sign?

[KeyboardWorriers]

Not a councillor but I am an advisor to their committees.

We have had countless messages from every corner of the public praising the accessibility of meetings that are streamed online - the housebound disabled, busy professionals, parents. It really opened up local democracy to far more people.

Everyone in local government that I know (councillors, officers) is keen to enable this access to continue and it is frustrating to be unable to.

[Packingsoapandwater]

I'm a councillor with a young child. I've found online meetings are good in terms of accessibility, but appalling in terms of scrutiny. The dynamic is very different, and technological problems cause a lot of issues. Some people just give up trying to make a statement if the connection is poor.

The other issue is that online meetings have allowed councillors to continue in their role when they actually moved region. Normally, moving out of the area would mean an inability to attend meetings, so starting the clock for disqualification if someone did not resign, but online meetings allow such people to continue to attend just to play silly beggars.

Also I think that having to actively attend a meeting in person reveals someone has the necessary commitment to be a councillor. There's a lot to be said for "turning up" in person to face other councillors and read the atmosphere in a room. Logging on just isn't the same.

[Chloemol]

@voovayclickwot

They are not hiding anything, the Government say primary legislation is required to allow virtual meetings to continue after 7th May and didn’t get their act together, unlike Wales and Scotland where virtual meetings can continue. Jenrick and Luke Hall should be ashamed of themselves, but really don’t seem to care. In fact Luke Hall doesn’t even have the courtesy to send correspondence about this to parish and town councils, only local authorities. They have started a consultation despite hundreds, if not thousands of councils petitioning their own MPs and his department for the virtual meetings to continue.

@NicolaDunsire. As regards emails they may be doing some actions under clerks delegated authority, or the Clerk makes the decision, this is allowed under the Local Government Act 1972 , but should be detailed within their standing orders that the Clerk has this authority. They must hold a meeting at least every six months for them all to remain councillors

[Ariannah]

Very suspicious that they want to stop online meetings immediately. What are they hoping to hide/avoid?!
I previously said on a similar thread - a number of councillors have resigned after what happened at Handforth because they’re afraid of being publicly ridiculed or “cancelled” if they make a verbal slip in a meeting. These are mostly unpaid volunteers who can’t risk losing their jobs because they get reported for saying something wrong at the parish council meeting. It wasn’t an issue previously when meetings weren’t recorded and there was no record of a clumsily phrased comment.

I'm not certain about hybrid meetings as true hybrid would mean fairly high expenditure which comes out of the public purse - a reliable and stable Internet connection in a public place, which many small rural village halls and church halls etc just don't have
My parish hall has no internet so the council wouldn’t be able to physically meet there and have people also join online. It’s either-or.

I would also like to note that not all meetings have been recorded during Covid and they are not required to be. Filming a council meeting is not a public right - the council can refuse permission for filming. The public only has the right to request to film, and to approach the Secretary of State to ask for this right to be enforced if the council refuses. People cannot just rock up and start recording meetings.

[Ariannah]

I've found online meetings are good in terms of accessibility, but appalling in terms of scrutiny
Since Handforth there’s a very strong public appetite to scrutinise meetings in order to uncover “wrongdoing” and post it publicly to get likes and comments. Councillors are volunteers who mostly haven’t received training but will still be held personally liable for anything they say that’s not in line with modern standards of political correctness (which seem to change every five minutes). They could end up losing their jobs or being vilified in the media. It’s not surprising that they’re not keen to continue with recorded meetings.

[RickiTarr]

Fabulous campaign. Have shared.

[Packingsoapandwater]

@Ariannah

I've found online meetings are good in terms of accessibility, but appalling in terms of scrutiny
Since Handforth there’s a very strong public appetite to scrutinise meetings in order to uncover “wrongdoing” and post it publicly to get likes and comments. Councillors are volunteers who mostly haven’t received training but will still be held personally liable for anything they say that’s not in line with modern standards of political correctness (which seem to change every five minutes). They could end up losing their jobs or being vilified in the media. It’s not surprising that they’re not keen to continue with recorded meetings.

I meant more in terms of councillors scrutinising ideas, projects, proposals, spend etc. As a committee chair, I can assess what's going on in a room and encourage councillors to speak if I get a feeling they have concerns but are hesitant to present them. The dynamic is more fluid.

I can't do that online. It all becomes very stilted and formal because there's a delay to starting and stopping speaking (invite the councillor to speak, councillor unmutes, the inevitable "can you hear me?", response "yes", councillor speaks, councillor finishes, two seconds of silence to ensure councillor has finished, go to next hands up etc)

And I'm essentially looking at small pictures of people where an icon pops up when they wish to speak. There's no sense of presence and no body language.

Again, when people turn their cameras off, the effect is somewhat like trying to follow a stilted radio play.

Online meetings are convenient, yes, particularly when you have children, but they create a host of other problems. People who don't have printers or two screens end up attending the meeting without the agenda in front of them, for example. You can't tell if someone's doing something else if their camera is off (one councillor, I suspect, plays computer games during full council).

[picklemewalnuts]

@Ariannah

Very suspicious that they want to stop online meetings immediately. What are they hoping to hide/avoid?!
I previously said on a similar thread - a number of councillors have resigned after what happened at Handforth because they’re afraid of being publicly ridiculed or “cancelled” if they make a verbal slip in a meeting. These are mostly unpaid volunteers who can’t risk losing their jobs because they get reported for saying something wrong at the parish council meeting. It wasn’t an issue previously when meetings weren’t recorded and there was no record of a clumsily phrased comment.

I'm not certain about hybrid meetings as true hybrid would mean fairly high expenditure which comes out of the public purse - a reliable and stable Internet connection in a public place, which many small rural village halls and church halls etc just don't have
My parish hall has no internet so the council wouldn’t be able to physically meet there and have people also join online. It’s either-or.

I would also like to note that not all meetings have been recorded during Covid and they are not required to be. Filming a council meeting is not a public right - the council can refuse permission for filming. The public only has the right to request to film, and to approach the Secretary of State to ask for this right to be enforced if the council refuses. People cannot just rock up and start recording meetings.

Are you sure Arrianah? We had someone intrusively filming, waving their iPad in an intimidating way, uploading it on a different website with commentary etc. The same person has uploaded to YouTube with comic effects, 'quackquackoops', etc. Appalling intimidating behaviour but with no recourse according to the various authorities we've contacted- NALC, SLCA and our parent authority.

[Ariannah]

commonslibrary.parliament.uk/why-cant-i-film-meetings-at-my-council/

Ohhh... looks like this has changed since I was a councillor several years ago. The law has been amended to allow the public to film meetings as long as it’s not disruptive. Although I imagine in your situation you could refuse and call the police because the person was being disruptive and intimidating.

As for whether they are allowed to edit the footage to take the piss out of councillors - they are allowed to edit in order to help people follow the video proceedings, but I imagine it would be classed as harassment and defamation if they were adding comic effects. If this is what people are doing then I’m not surprised if councillors are resigning.

[ShagMeRiggins]

They could end up losing their jobs or being vilified in the media.

As you stated, they’re unlaid volunteers so wouldn’t be losing their jobs, only their roles. To my knowledge this hasn’t happened, though some have chosen to step down for their own reasons.

Those saying it’s inconvenient and halls have no WiFi and the flow is better in person...this might be true in some areas and certainly there are challenges, but we are in the 21st century. Adapt.

My understanding is the law is basically because Parliament needs to meet in person, understandable because representatives are from all across the UK. With parish councils it’s a ridiculous notion. Technology can suffice.

Mostly, I’m not particularly interested in the problems of councillors and technology—I’m interested in as many people as possible having access to the meetings and decisions made by the people who represent me and my area. There are far more constituents than councillors.

Everyone can see parliamentary proceedings if they have a television or computer/phone. The same is not true for local government. That’s undemocratic.

[ShagMeRiggins]

*unpaid volunteers, not unlaid

Apologies to local councillors everywhere. Your time and effort is appreciated.

[Ariannah]

As you stated, they’re unpaid volunteers so wouldn’t be losing their jobs, only their roles
Let’s say you’re a teacher. You’re also a councillor and say something inappropriate in a recorded meeting. Do you really think people wouldn’t try to “cancel” you and get you sacked from your teaching job? There were calls for the Alec guy from Handforth to be sacked by his employer after his conduct in that meeting.

[RowanMumsnet]

Thanks so much everyone - some really interesting points raised here (including from people who don't agree ).

@MrsHoneyman good point and I'm not sure we have a good answer to be honest - as other users have noted we spotted this issue rather late in the day and had to throw this together at fairly short notice

Slightly in awe at how many of you have taken on roles within your local councils - thank you for the work you all do.

We'll update here when (if) we get a response!

[crystal1983]

Probably a good idea to promote the consultation on remote meetings for local government too www.gov.uk/government/consultations/local-authority-remote-meetings-call-for-evidence/local-authority-remote-meetings-call-for-evidence

As previous posters have pointed out this is quite a tricky issue - online meetings brilliant for a lot of reasons but not so for others. I work with cllrs and there’s a broad consensus that allowing an option for hybrid meetings is the best way forward. Also allows for council business to continue in the event of flooding, extreme weather etc

[HotPenguin]

Can I ask whether anyone has experience of running a hybrid meeting where everyone is socially distanced? How do you deal with the logistics of ensuring all speakers can be heard by those viewing remotely?

[JemimaMuddledUp]

[quote Fiftyand]@JemimaMuddledUp they can be both to accommodate everyone.[/quote]
That's the problem, they can't. In England they have to be in person meetings, in Wales we have to meet online. There's no option for councils in England or Wales to move to a hybrid option to accommodate everyone.

I live in a county with very low Covid rates. We have councillors who have been unable to attend meetings since March 2020 as they don't have an internet connection, others who have such poor broadband that they frequently disappear mid discussion. Several have said that they will resign as it is too difficult for them to carry on if meetings are online. I have no idea how we will replace them if they do resign - people just don't want to take on council roles.

I'd love to be able to meet in a socially distanced way, outdoors in a garden or field perhaps over the summer so that we can hold a proper inclusive meeting for all our councillors. But we aren't allowed.

It's frustrating in both England and Wales that we can't make the decision ourselves based on the demographic of our councillors (and clerk) and the local Covid rates.

[crystal1983]

@HotPenguin

Can I ask whether anyone has experience of running a hybrid meeting where everyone is socially distanced? How do you deal with the logistics of ensuring all speakers can be heard by those viewing remotely?

I know some councils have been doing it but can’t recall who - if it comes to me I’ll PM you