Bounty Mutiny campaign: we're off to meet the Minister for Health...

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

Hopefully most of you will know about Mumsnet's Bounty Mutiny campaign, which asks for commercial sales reps to be kept off hospital maternity wards.

We just wanted to let you know that a meeting has been arranged between Justine and Dr Daniel Poulter, Conservative MP and minister for the relevant part of the Department of Health.

Dr Poulter has expressed concern about this issue in the past, saying in a letter to NHS Trusts,

"I am asking you to review your practices for allowing representatives from private companies on maternity wards to assure yourselves that you are maintaining women’s dignity and respect shortly after the birth of a baby when they can be tired and vulnerable."

So we're looking forward to discussing the campaign with him and seeing what he has to say. We'll update you here to let you know how it went.

[tribpot]

NicNak, very sorry about your loss.

I can't help but think the Information Commissioner's Office would be interested to hear about the many examples of blatant disregard for data protection principles that have been disclosed on this thread alone.

[PenguinsEatSpinach]

NicNak - We cross posted. So sorry for your loss. That is utterly, utterly awful. Data matters doesn't it. It isn't just some minor inconvenience the way it is often portrayed. It can cause real and lasting damage and pain.

[Mrsbapandbabies]

Bounty is so intertwined with the NHS it's scary. They must be paying the hospitals a fair amount of money! I had no idea they used your personal details for evil after DC1 and was actually suprised when the phone calls started.

I'm a paediatric nurse and when a child dies we actually inform bounty so they stop sending things to the parents. I think that's horrendous.

[RedToothBrush]

tribpot, the problem is you can't just complain to the ICO straight off. You have to go through the process of complaining to the company concerned first and then them if the response is unsatisfactory. Given that women don't complain to hospitals due to the timing and having so much on their hands anyway, they are even less likely to complain to Bounty direct (especially because they are so disillusioned and exploited through the interaction they had already had).

[tribpot]

I agree, RedToothBrush. I haven't made a complaint to my local hospital about a much less traumatic period of care last year - because I just don't see the point.

Interestingly on the kickback front, I googled NHS + Bounty and one of the first documents I came across was this report to the Board of the West Suffolk Hospital - which coincidentally was where ds was born, although I have no memory of any interaction with Bounty. The kickback takes the form of a payment per photo set flogged (capped at 5% of all births).

I would imagine the clear guidelines Dr Poulter has promised will not be dissimilar to the guidelines already in place at the West Suffolk - which fail to address the fact these people (all women, according to the report) have no bloody business being on the ward in the first place.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

I'm so sorry NicNik

Posts like yours make me wish our campaign could move away from it's perhaps understandable focus on what was our own experience of Bounty reps on the wards, and look at the bigger picture.

The interaction with Bounty personnel on hospital wards is clearly beyond awful for some women, even if for many it will be merely irritating.

[tribpot]

NHS Lothian responded to an FOI request to confirm they received £1/birth (total of £9,800 in 2013) and that Bounty fund a guide to breastfeeding.

[tribpot]

NHS Grampian noted the income is paid to endowment funds and thus declined to answer their FOI question on that matter.

[RedToothBrush]

I think the idea of the CQC monitoring things is a big step forward though tribpot. So although you are concerned that there are already guidelines in place, and that they don't seem to be effective I think there will be more accountability. This is currently the problem.

And as you say, you didn't see the point in many a complaint. I think the reasons about why you didn't see the point and why you felt you would be ignored are the key here.

By making it clear that the CQC has jurisdiction it means that you are not just complaining to the hospital which has a vested financial interest and therefore conflict of interest in dealing with your complaint. The hospital will be accountable for how they handle those complaints in a way they haven't been previously. It also legitimises women's complaints by making it very clear that this behaviour goes against the duty of care of hospitals and is monitored. Hopefully meaning that women feel that their complaint is a 'valid' one and one that will be taken more seriously than previously - and will encourage them to make them.

It does actually put privacy and dignity on maternity wards in general, more on the map. It does shine a spotlight on what standards are unacceptable across the board.

It doesn't go perhaps as far as I personally would like, but I do think its a positive move.

[PigletJohn]

"There are no complaints logged on the Complaints Module of Datix (NHS Lothian’s Risk Management System) in relation the activities of Bounty staff. However, due to recent interest (June/July 2013) we have had a total of seven enquiries/concerns from members of the public and one MSP all requesting that NHS Lothian reviews its position with Bounty"

That suggests to me that anyone wishing to make a complaint should do it in writing, with a subject "Formal Complaint about Bounty" at the top of the letter, otherwise you may be recorded as an "enquiry"

[confuddledDOTcom]

NicNak, have you tried the Baby Preference Service? It's part of Telephone Preference Service (where you stop people from cold calling you) and it blocks your details from all baby lists. It's so good that I had to keep signing up to the Boots club when I was pregnant again because I was removed from the list every time I did.

I'm really hoping Dan isn't going to miss the point, it seems we're all waiting on that.

[Jux]

Well done MN.

I do think they should be banned, but a compromise would be letting them leave a nice goody bag, with their web address. They could send more goodies if you provide them with your details once you've visited the site.

I have no idea whether they were around when I had dd. I wasn't at my local hospital (I was on holiday), had dd around midnight and left the hospital before midday. I'm sure that I would have believed anything I was told if one had been about and nabbed me before I left. I was in no state to make sensible decisions.

[tribpot]

I agree, Red - it's definitely an improvement on the current situation. I would like to see how CQC intend to monitor and enforce standards effectively. Which they are supposed to do in due course.

I am still very concerned about the data collection issue, though, and I'd like to see each Trust provide evidence of the information governance assessment that led them to conclude there was no risk of data loss in having a person paid by the number of people's details he or she can collect (if that is the case) on the wards.

[NicNak71]

Thank you everyone, it was a dreadful time. I remember being in the room and my hubby had gone for coffee, so I was alone with our baby. I had him wrapped in a blanket and I was holding him, the door burst open and this frantic bouncy woman leapt into the room.

She started prattling about this Bounty pack and that the photographer was in the main ward and would come to me when she was done in there. She then made a move towards me and started asking what I'd had, could she see the baby. I don't remember what I said, I just knew there was no way this creature was looking at my baby, I can remember being in a panic and not knowing what to do. I was crying and getting a bit hysterical when the midwife came in and threw her out. It was really horrendous.

In hindsight, I should have made a formal complaint, but this was my first baby, I was trying to come to terms with the fact that we wouldn't be leaving that hospital as new parents, we would be organising a funeral. By the time I was in the right frame of mind to even think about it, it seemed pointless to me, as I felt I'd left it too long.

I definitely think this campaign will make a huge difference and give us all better privacy and protection in the future.

ConfuddledDOTcom, thank you for that, I didn't realise there was a baby preference service. I'm going to give it a go now, lets hope I can finally be rid of Bounty :)

[Mnippy]

I also find myself agreeing wholeheartedly redtoothbrush. As always.

[KatieMumsnet]

Thank you all for your comments, and very sorry to hear so many tough stories, especially NicNak71. Dan Poulter did also say he would write to every individual NHS Trust where Mumsnetters have received poor treatment, so please do email us at [email protected] with your experiences, the hospital and date, so we can pass these complaints on.

[Blondieminx]

Brilliant news MNHQ

Nodding along with RedToothbrush, and having the CQC inspect bounty practices on wards is a very sensible idea.

NicNac that is horrendous I hope the mw who ejected the bounty woman tore strips off her. Just awful.

[trufflehunterthebadger]

It baffles me that, when MW posts and entire maternity departments are being cut, the government pay a commercial organisation to dole out a form when they could be given out by government employees at a variety of opportunities - in your HH notes. On discharge from maternity. At registering the birth.

Or, like all other benefits, why is the onus not on the recipient to obtain the form ? You want the £x per week, you get yourself the form

[confuddledDOTcom]

They've said that they don't want us getting the form ourselves because of postage costs, it's the only benefit that most people will claim. But as you say they don't have to post it there's loads of opportunities for it.

[trufflehunterthebadger]

How do postage costs come into it ? Pick it up at the post office like every single other form

[tribpot]

I suspect the allocation of CB triggers all sorts of downstream processes inside HMRC and related departments, just as the allocation of an NHS number on the ward does in health. I'm quite certain the government is not that bothered about paying out CB! But it would explain why they don't want to lower the rate of uptake. I'm not sure it would though - even being handed the form you've got to fill it in and post it (no mean feat with a newborn). And arguably you would be more compos mentis if you received it whilst registering the birth.

[Goldmandra]

what constitutes good and bad practice and what can and cannot take place on maternity wards with regards to sales reps.

Allowing them to be on the wards at all constitutes bad practice. No other sales reps would be enabled to carry out cold calling vulnerable new mothers in this way.

It's appalling that it hasn't been stopped already!

[confuddledDOTcom]

Because they used to post it to parents before Bounty started giving it out. It's not necessary, it would make more sense for it to be given by a MW, HV or registrar.

[tribpot]

HMRC wrote to me to remind me to do my tax return this year. That's it, just 'don't forget to do the return, okay?' I graciously give them permission to either email me or trust I'll remember to do my sodding tax return, and use the stamp to post out a CB form.

HMRC wrote to me at least three further times to change my tax code.

And Goldmandra, I completely agree with this: Allowing them to be on the wards at all constitutes bad practice.