Schools in Berlin

[SSSandy]

Hi my daughter starts school this year and I chose not to send her to the British (too expensive), Europa (heard too many negative reports), JFK (too American) or International school (too much changeover). Ok it's difficult to find the perfect school, but none of the English language options seemed good and I didn't like the behaviour of the children, the overall feel of the places when I paid them a visit.

Thing is, I have a really bad impression of schools and education here generally, thanks to media coverage. Can anyone convince me otherwise? Have you made positive experiences with German schools?

I've read lots of reports about how badly German schools do in the PISA tests. There was a lot of media coverage about teachers requesting the state intervene at their school in Neukoeln because the teachers could no longer cope. My impression is that kids are badly taught, show lack of respect for teachers and that academic achievement and this strict grading at the age of 10-12 just isn't good. I taught briefly at a fairly "elite" Gymnasium here when I first came and I thought teaching methods were trapped in the 1950's but it is definitely one of the better schools here. Still I wouldn't send my daughter there.

Can anyone put my mind at rest? Thanks

[Nightynight]

hello fit!

[SSSandy]

Uh-oh, I'll have to hunt for your homework thread while I'm panicking about the whole school thing!

We have that streaming here too. Some gymnasien take children from the age of 10 (mostly the Latin-Greek ones) and the rest from the age of 12, so if they don't get into a gymnasium then, they won't be qualified for university entrance when they finish school.

I plan to just insist on her going to a gymnasium, whatever the teacher recommends when the time comes. I've read that in Germany, children rarely get into a gymnasium unless their parents have studied. I don't understand why this should be the case though. Maybe university educated parents put more input into homework monitoring or are the teachers just influenced by the parent's socio-economic class when they make their recommendation?

Time will tell I guess. In any case, it's too late to change schools now so I will have to make the best of the decision I made. I do have a pretty good feeling about this school on the whole but I don't think you can rely on the schoolwork being sufficient. I am expecting to supplement the schoolwork with an hour or so extra work every afternoon.

[admylin]

German school drives me crazy!
I've got my son off school ill today and I just looked at his timetable and he is absoloutly nót missing anything of importance the whole day, 45 minutes of maths which he is ahead in anyway and 45 minutes with the german teacher but he hardly does any writing with her - the rest is music, sport and lebenskunde which is instead of religion (I wanted him to go to religion but then he would have had another day where he starts school at a different time to his sister). It is driving my crazy, the to and fro from school is ridiculous and next year will be worse for sure, why can't they just have all children in school from 9 to 3. Be glad you only have one, if I had 3 or 4 kids I would have had to leave germany as I wouldn't have coped!

[SSSandy]

More bad news You mean they don't start school every day at 8 o'clock?!

I agree, why can't they have school from 9-3 and a decent lunchbreak? That's why I wanted a Hort place but the impression I get is that kids do nothing at all at Hort, just hang about, so I may as well pick her up at 1.30 pm. It's all very inconvenient for parents.

It's interesting what you say about this time wasting at school. I studied here and had the impression that I learnt nothing and my studies were never going to get going. We were always being held back until I registered for final exams and all of a sudden - boom! The pressure was on. My suspician is that is what happens here once they start at the gymnasium, they'll be totally unprepared for the change.

Hope your son feels better soon. What does he have?

I went for a stroll after dropping off dd at kindergarten. Spring has done a bunk again, more crummy weather... At least the sun would shine a bit more in Pakistan!

[foundintranslation]

ks - Wildenbruchstr. is literally a couple of streets away from where we lived. It isn't much un-grimmer now!

Admylin and Sandy - as Hausfrau says, the way the school day is structured works on the assumption that the mother is at home, and in some circles children whose mothers work are rather pitied . I think you're right about the timewasting, Sandy - what always strikes me is that over here, putting your children into school before the age of 6 or even 7 is considered almost as child cruelty, because it 'takes away their childhood', and yet suddenly when they get to 3rd or 4th grade the pressure is piled on because the all-important school recommendation is coming up.

[emkana]

It's so interesting to read all your views on the German school system!

Wave to foundintranslation - hope you are okay!

[SSSandy]

FIT what town do you live in?

Is this recommendation really all that important? I mean, say they recommend that your child attend a Realschule, you can still go ahead and apply to a Gymnasium, can't you? Or am I being unrealistic here? Is it practically impossible to get accepted into a Gymnasium without the recommendation?

[emkana]

AFAIK teachers can only recommend, but ultimately the decision lies with the parents.
Some Gymnasien though are in a position to pick and choose their pupils and if the grades aren't good enough they won't let your child in.

[SSSandy]

Thanks Emkana,
Do you live in Germany these days?

By the sounds of it , I will need to court the teacher, make a point of carrying impressive books under my arm when I drop dd off, wear thick specs and generally make a profound intellectual impression on her teacher for the next 4 years! That might be fun, eh girls?

When you apply to a Gymnasium, do you have to show them the recommendation you got from the Grundschule or do they just look at the report cards? The Gymnasium I have in mind is from year 4 and has entrance exams, essays, interview etc but I know it is very difficult to get in. No one from dd's Grundschule has been accepted there for the past 6 years I've been told.

[emkana]

I live in the UK.

When I was at primary school I received a final report which also contained the recommendation, and you had to show that to the Gymnasium, I think.
But this was 25 years ago, so things might well have changed!

How old is your dd?

[SSSandy]

She's 5 1/2 emkana. She starts school this August.

I think I have a big problem with the Realschule-Gymnasium divide. I don't really see the point in it because a lot of children with Abitur go on to do office jobs they would have been qualified for with a Realschule certificate. Whereas I believe a lot of the Realschule children would have no trouble studying for a degree. A lot of them do go on and study for the Abitur at evening school but it takes another 2 years of their time. I suppose it's just cultural inflexibility on my part though.

I don't find the idea of the Hauptschule so bad though because I'm impressed with the apprenticeship system here. I have the impression that the training is very good and people take more pride in their work as a result. When I've had plumbers or builders in, for instance, they were very professional. I expect they would have gone through the Hauptschule, apprenticeship system.

[emkana]

The whole system has changed over time, I'm afraid.

At a Gymnasium you will now find pupils who will go on to study for a degree and those who will go into office jobs. The Realschule has those pupils who go through the apprenticeship system, which, I agree, is very good. The Hauptschule has in many ways become the school for those who will do low-skill jobs or who will end up unemployed. Not all of them, granted, but a lot of them.

IMO the system is in urgent need of reform.

If your child goes to a Realschule they can still go to a Gymnasium, they can change schools at any time if they're doing very well or they can go on to do the Abitur once they turn 16 and finish 10th grade.

[admylin]

Yes, the lessons start at different times depending if they are in religion or lebenskunde and the german for foreigners also messes up times as only some kids atend. The worst day for me is wednesday, I have to take dd to school, ds gets to sleep in, then come back for him and take him, then I collect dd at 1:15 but we have to hangaround waiting for ds as he finishes at 14:10, it isn't worth walking home and having to turn round after 10 minutes to come back. Crazy.
As you say, I am also always sucking up to the teacher making sure she knows how often we go to the library to get german books and that she knows knows what we studied and how we find education important etc..! All just so the report at the end of the year is good for going on further.
I am already preparing ds for the 3rd year as it will be harder going and year 4 will be a shock. But I think in the UK, parents have the same stress about SATS (is that it?), some sort of testing with real exams?

[SSSandy]

Thanks for the info. Good that there are so many experienced mums out there!

I see Admylin. What a drag hanging about for an hour, especially in winter. I was thinking of looking for a part-time job once dd starts school. Since pick-up time is 1.30, I could only work from 9-12 or something like that. However if the school time-table varies so much, even that would be difficult to manage.

Have you considered teaching English (to adults) for a couple of hours a week while you're here? It's badly paid but I always found it fun. You might enjoy it. In-Lingua in the Friedrichst. isn't too far from you and they're supposed to be nice, there's also the Berlin School of English round there.

[SSSandy]

Even if it didn't happen in the school grounds, found the report about the 16 year old girl who was gang-raped by 4 kids between 13-15 on her way home from school awful.

Apparently two Turkish boys and two Russian-Germans attacked her in the park opposite their school. They are said to have filmed the rape and sent the pictures by cellphone to other pupils, so it was widely known in the school when the kids were arrested. They've been set free again. The poor girl is going to have to go to school and face the four of them (they all attend the same school). Apparently it is very difficult for the police to retain youths and the 13 year old can't be charged anyway.

[admylin]

I read that too, isn't it crazy. And you never hear of the parents getting any sort of trouble if their kids do things like that. Some one should be made responsible, if the kids are too young to be charged, then someone else like the parents should be.
The trouble is alot of the parents just don't respect the system either. I know it is changing the subject abit but here they take school attendance very seriously, it is the law that your child has to attend school. (Not like in the UK where it is the law to give them an education so you can also home school etc) anyway, one mum in my ds's class told me last week that she had booked a week before the end of term to fly to her homeland of Turkey. I was shocked because I know it is taken seriously and you have to apply for a day or 2 even to be let off early. She just shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't bother applying because she is going anyway and if they kick up a fuss there are always ways of getting out of it ie a false doctors note or something like that. I don't know but how will her kids learn to respect the rules if she doesn't teach them?
I always teach my 2 that they have to follow the rules even if they disagree, in school they are part of a system and if you want to get through it then you have to follow the rules.

[SSSandy]

Hi Admylin, come across to the topic "living overseas"

[SSSandy]

Does anyone know if you have a Hort place, are you obliged to use it? Can you pay to have a place but only use it a couple of afternoons a week? Do the children get a warm lunch at Hort?

[admylin]

Lunch costs extra, our school has a kitchen and a choice of 2 meals, they get a menu the week before. If you got a place and didn't use it then it might be unfair if there is a waitinglist and someone really needs it. I know a couple of mums who are waiting and one had to wait 3 months to get a place.

[SSSandy]

Seems I misunderstood the letter I received from the Jugendamt. It says "you have been given a Hort place" but in fact since it doesn't say from 13.30-16.00 or something, it actually means that I have not been given one. I only found that out when I took it into the school to put my name down on the Hort waiting list.

Strange.

[SSSandy]

Did you know that you are entitled to sit in on classes if you arrange it with the teacher beforehand? They cannot refuse.

I read it in an info sheet for parents of new school children yesterday. A father told me the other day that his dd's teacher had spoken to him about it but he wasn't interested. I'd like to see what my dd's class is like, since I didn't go to school here. I haven't a clue what the approach is like and if it is very different to what I remember from primary school. Must be of course , simply because of the length of time that has passed.