ex manipulating DD

[mrscolour]

Me and ex split up in February. Everything is very messy as mediation fell apart this week as he would not accept any of the proposed financial settlements and is trying to make out I'm being unreasonable about access as well.

Since we split, he has been manipulating 4 year old DD to get his own way. The minute he left he told her he was getting his own place and would get beds so she could stay with him and said mummy would get her own place "eventually" (me and kids living at mum and dad's at mo) without explaining properly to he where she would live. Once he found somewhere to rent (we were both still liable for the mortgage on another property at this point btw) he told her she was staying over and I had to give in and let her stay. I know I would have had to let her stay eventually but I didn't like the way she was being put in the middle of this decision.

Ex is Irish his family all still live there and they rarely came to visit us. Now DD is asking me when we're going to Ireland and see her auntie. It's obvious that he's put this idea in her head as she's never asked this before and when she got her presents from his family at Christmas she couldn't actually remember who they were. He obviously also hadn't explained that he planned to take them without me!

At mediation this week he brought up the issue of taking the children over to Ireland which I wasn't surprised about after what DD has been saying. I really don't want him to take them there - I think it's too far away from me, DS (just turned 2) hasn't had overnights with his dad yet, the children don't really know his family as they've only seen them once a year and when we did visit they didn't pay children much attention anyway, I have worries about how he would cope with the journey with the 2 of them and I'd also have worries about their welfare whilst there were there - who would look after them if their dad was asked to help on the farm and dd is really scared of the dogs.

So I wish there was something I could do to stop him promising her things that we haven't agreed yet. She has enough to get her little head around at the moment.

I'm also thinking that the only way he'd be able to take them would be to get a specific issue order and he probably wouldn't be able to get this in place before the summer holidays anyway. Anyone got any experience of this sort of thing.

[norwegianwood]

Are you sure you are not confusing your own feelings with the welfare of your DC? I mean that in the nicest possible way. It is very hard to separate our feeling sometimes.
I understand what you are saying re you Ex's family not making the effort to travel to visit your DC.
I am in a similar position. My DS paternal family make little effort with DS - non existant since DS' father died a couple of months ago. Despite all my efforts they simply do not want to know. Yet I will keep trying if only so DS knows I did all I could to enable a realtionship between him and his paternal family.
Out of interest, you say not this summer, does that mean the autumn or spring is ok? When do you anticipate you will be ready for them to go? And what do you expect your Ex to do in order for it tobe ok happen?

[ChocHobNob]

I read that back and realised it could be interpreted as very patronising! It wasn't meant to be.

[norwegianwood]

If you are worried that your DC don't know them well enough, how about encouraging their paternal family to phone regularly/send letters? Realise that sounds ridiculously optimisttic of me - as from experience this doesn't seem to happen but if you suggest it might just be a way for your DC to get to kow their family.

[mrscolour]

Have thought about this and I still feel my kids won't be ready for a trip this summer holidays.
The journey is either a 3 hour ferry trip with lots of driving either side or a plane journey. I wouldn't fancy doing that journey on my own with the kids so and I'm not sure ex has thought it through.
If it's the ferry, ex would need to break up the car journey as it's too much to do in one day. We used to stay at my brother's, what would he do now? Also, one time when we went, dd got seasick and threw up all over me. I'm not sure how ex would cope with this or how he would keep them entertained for a 3 hour journey.
If it's a plane journey I would need to be reassured that he'd made arrangements for car seats when transporting them to the house. Keeping ds amused in his seat on the plane would be interesting as well.

At the house, there are health and safety issues. Last time we stayed - ds was about 15 months and hadn't been walking that long - I found a tablet on the floor as well as live matches. I was constantly having to close the Aga door as his mum and sister kept leaving it open. I know ex will be asked to help on the farm. He would probably ask his mum or sister to watch the kids but his mum has said that when ex and siblings were kids they were "left" while she got on with jobs and I wouldn't trust her not to do the same with my kids. And what if they were making tea and not watching kids. Ds is a bundle of energy and climbs on everything and gets everywhere.

Last time we stayed, DD was scared to go into the kitchen without me in case the dogs were in there as they kept barking at her. She also experienced having the door shut in her face by her grandmother.

But my biggest objection is the fact ex has starting talking to dd about this without explaining things properly. Dd seemed really shocked when I explained that I wouldn't be going to.

I don't really know when I feel the children will be ready for this trip. Need to have a proper conversation with ex about it really but not sure how that can happen now that mediation has fallen apart.

norwegianwood - think his family sending letters etc. would be a good start. Not sure it would be maintained though.

[Smum99]

Just to let you know - If your ex took the case to court (and he's able to take the children on holiday for a few weeks) then the issues raised wouldn't be viewed as welfare concerns. Your ex is the father and as such he does have the same rights as you.He does not need to answer your questions about car seats although as parents you can suggest approaches to each other.

The court seeks to protect the rights of the children - who have a right to know both parents and the extended family.

I also don't think he has acted unreasonably by telling your DCs about the new housing arrangements. This is something that mums would do post separation.

I know you are finding this hard and we do have sympathy for that (most of us have been there) but for your own sake you will need to move your position and try to get more comfortable about your ex having an equal and fair involvement in the children's lives. It really is in their long term interests to have a good relationship with both parents. One of the hardest things we have to do as mums is put aside our feelings (and if an ex is an ex it's likely we no longer like them!!) and see the benefit from the childrens' POV.

I know it's not easy but you need to accept that he loves the children and will have their best interests at heart. This will help you in the long term and heal the hurt of the separation.

[hairylights]

You're sounding really unreasonable - he is their father!

[WibblyBibble]

Jesus freaking christ, I really do despair of this board when it's been taken over by misogynist "fathers rights!" nutjobs to the extent that someone is told they should let their 2 year old be taken off to another country for a week to be possibly looked after by people he's never met, having never previously had an overnight with the father, just because the father feels like it. Way to put parental 'rights' above what's good for children, all of you. OP, please ignore the IPOAT and do what you know is best for your children- there is plenty of time for them to visit relatives when they're old enough to not be traumatised by being dragged about like parcels.

[WibblyBibble]

Oh yes, sending letters to form a relationship with a two year old. That's going to work really well. Do you lot have no reading comprehension at all?

[GypsyMoth]

wibblybibble........forget all that!! the op will have to do as the judge instructs her to do.....to the letter!!

best she gets her head round it now,eh!?

[hairylights]

wibblybibble I am neither misogynist, nor 'father's rights' ist.

this is the childs father - not some complete stanger - the child has equal rights to a relationship with her father, to the mothers rights. Simple as that.

How exactly is the proposal actually bad for the child? If the OP suspects some form of abuse or neglect, then she should say so, but I can't see anything stated here that constitutes anything more than a mother who is determined to prevent the father having the relationship he wants with his child.

[whiteandnerdy]

I also have manipulated my children, their granmother passed away about 4 years ago but when I did take my kids to visit her I told them it would be really great. I kind of left off the bit about, not being much in the way of toys to play with at their gran's house, and she was a bit old to play their games and we'd probably do lots of boring stuff that their gran was comfortable with like taking walks or just sitting about in the garden.

Yup what a bastard for manipulating my kids, making out it'll be really good fun to visit granny when infact it was really a bit boring and rubbish for them. Mind you they do sometimes tell me that they miss granny and I'm so glad they had the chance to visit her while she was here.

[mrscolour]

Well, when I've spoken to anyone is the real world about ex taking kids to Ireland the response has been totally different to the response on here!

I don't know what would happen if it went to court but I have a feeling it may not become an issue. I suspect my ex MIL will tell ex not to bother taking the kids over as she has so many times in the past when we were together. Dd has not mentioned it again.

I will think twice about what I post in the future as it seems there are too many people who are very quick to make a judgement based on very little information.

However I do appreciate those who have made their point in a civil way.

[GypsyMoth]

well maybe if your ex posted his version? then it might be easier. we only have your story to go by. no need to get stroppy

[gillybean2]

Ok first off take a big step back and breathe....

Now then. Has your ex actually spoken to you about this or are you hearing a garbled version of it from your dd?
I would ask him about it first. You may be getting yourself worked up about nothing at this point.
Yes he may have spoken to dd about it, talked about previous visits and her paternal family. But that doesn't mean he's planning to take her and ds this summer does it? Or it may be that he is planning to do so and is unaware that you have concerns and worries.

Explain to your dd. Say that daddy hasn't discussed it with you and he needs to do that so she must get worried or too excited about it just yet. That of course she will see her grandparents again, but it won't be just yet amd confirm for her that yes it will be different this time because it will just be daddy taking her and you will stay at home. She is probably all excited and needs to know that this isn't a concrete plan, just an idea at the moment. And you need to know what his plans are on this subject so you can make a more informed decision...

For example - How would you feel if your ex said he was only planning on taking dd for now? Would you agree she is old enough to go with him? Would you feel happier that he can manage one child with whatever way he chooses to travel the possible seasickness etc?
If you still don't feel happy about that then why not? At what age do you think you'd feel happier and what needs to happen before you will be happier?

Maybe you feel that she hasn't spent enough time away from you and with her dad as yet. If so suggest to him that he takes her away for a long weekend to visit friends in the UK, or go somewhere like Centre Parcs or camping. Tell him it will help you feel better about a longe rtrip away and help him realise what a trip away with dd involves.
If you feel you could - explain that you won't agree to Ireland this summer but that you will next summer if he is willing to have her overnight 2 nights in a row sometimes and a bit more in the holidays and take her away for a long weekend once or twice before then.

I think a gradual increase like this will help put your mind at reast about the issues you have (which as others have said aren't welfare issues that a court would accept but are instead concerns that you have)

Try and think of some other things you can suggest that may help you resolve some of your concerns.

As to your ds, yes he is young and not having overnights yet. You could discuss with your ex as to when you think overnights should start. How soon would you be happy with? Now? 6 months time? During the summer holidays perhaps?
And tell him that once ds is settled and happy you will increase the overnights as you are proposing with dd now, so that you'll be happy for him to take them both away on short breaks and to ireland in the future.

I know this is hard for you, but a court will allow him to take them to visit family in Ireland. Please bear that in mind and see if you can work out a proposal between you for putting plans in place for increasing contact with a view to him taking dd away in 12 months time and possibly ds too the year after.

I'm sure you can see that is a far preferable proposal than to go to court and have an order placed upon you.

[gillybean2]

I meant mustn't get excited/worried obviously!

[mrscolour]

Thank you Gillybean for some sound advice.

My ex brought up taking the children away at the end of our failed mediation session and we didn't have time to discuss it properly just for me to say I wasn't happy about it. We could do with having a discussion on it but I'm not quite sure how. If we try and discuss things on our own they just turn into an arguement.

In theory, I would be more happy about ex taking just dd over. I think ds would miss her and she would miss him but I would feel a bit happier about safety. Still feel she would be quite worried being there without me but I suppose I don't really know.

We have agreed that ds will start overnights in the summer holidays and this will increase over time. I have wondered whether ex taking the children away somewhere nearer home might be a starting point; at least then if there was a problem they could come back and he might get an idea about what it is really like to take two young children away.

I just really feel for dd at the moment. She is still coming to terms with the split and we don't really have a "home" at the moment as we are living at my parents until we get sorted. I just really feel she could do without being put in the middle of decisions that have to be made between me and her father.

[gillybean2]

Why did mediation fail?

Do you think you're ready to try it again given that you can't have a conversation together without arguing?

What does he feel about it?

[mrscolour]

Mediation failed partly because ex would not accept any of the financial settlements proposed saying he wanted more. This is despite the mediator saying that what he was proposing wouldn't get past a judge and explaining that it would cost him lots to go to court and he'd probably lose.

We also spent a lot of time in our last session just wasting time. For example he must have wasted about 20 minutes arguing that his solicitor was an expert on children and the mediator trying to explain to him that solicitors aren't experts in children, they're experts in what happens in court. But he would not listen and she ended up digging out an article to try and prove the point. He kept on dragging up things which were irrelevant e.g. moaning that I'm getting benefits cos I work part time and him going on again about it all being my fault that the marriage has fallen apart.

Basically, I think the session was too soon after the previous session and he just wanted to let off steam.

I wish mediation would work as it seems like a much better way of working things out than using solicitors but unfortunately as far as my ex is concerned, everything I say or suggest is wrong and everything is my fault. I feel he is too wound up and bitter about his life being a mess to discuss anything rationally.