UK vs HK for raising children.

[NewFamilyInHK]

Is anyone still considering a move to HK for raising children? We are still considering the pros and cons:

UK pros

• better overall education system (UK private school)
• eventually will be back in the UK for uni and career
• gentler for children i.e. have a go
• more fun hobbies rather than for certificates in shopping malls
• no transition for children (new friends in HK, then new friends again on return to the UK)
• no need to rent out our house / sell / hassle of furnitures

HK pros

• domestic helper! enjoy parenting rather than be broken by it
• better food at better prices
• convenience of travelling around by mini bus, taxi, bus, MTR
• overall safety - no gangs, no random violence, no drugs
• international school shields us from NSL

So the biggest balance now is whether the HK lifestyle (easier parenting) is enough to justify giving up the UK's fun hobbies, longevity, less disruption to children and marginally (maybe) better education. We'd be saving in both the UK and HK so financially OK.

In my position and the above facts, which would you choose?

[Notamum12345577]

The freedoms in HK are being eroded by the communist party though…

[NewFamilyInHK]

@Notamum12345577 I hear this a lot, but going to an international school, does it affect us day to day? Eating, shopping, travelling, working.

[beAsensible1]

I’d choose HK, plus if you don’t like you can come back.

lots of immigrants I know who live or have lived liked it. Was there recently, still great.

[fedupandstuck]

Is there a reason you couldn't get some domestic help in the UK?

[NewFamilyInHK]

@fedupandstuck you have to pay tax and national insurance on top of salaries, and it works out to be around GBP 55k / HKD $550,000 a year. So it's kind of OK, but for higher taxes in the UK and this expense, it's no longer as attractive as having one in HK.

[WalkingaroundJardine]

@fedupandstuck

Is there a reason you couldn't get some domestic help in the UK?

You can get a Filipino domestic worker in HK and pay them a pittance, even the university educated ones. Furthermore, they don’t have the same protections as other workers and it’s common to hear stories of them sleeping under the dining table or on the stairs at night. They are often locked out on Sundays and we have seen them all gathering at the shopping centre just sitting on the ground and socialising together.

Our relatives lived in HK for many years but left after the protests. They were teachers and they were starting to get government interference in terms of what they could teach and certain books were removed. Many other expats have since left too.

[MiltonNorthern]

There is a growing community of HKers in the uk coming here to protect their children from indoctrination by the Chinese communist party. Uprooting their whole families, selling their homes, moving across the world to a country where they are a minority and their kids have to learn a new language etc - all to ensure their children grow up with human rights and freedoms intact. It's bizarre to me that anyone would consider taking their kids there voluntarily! You don't say whether you're originally from HK which if so would give a different perspective but if you're British I would just say give it some serious thought.

[BetterLuckTomorrow]

Your top reason for moving to Hong Kong is to make use of the poorly paid domestic workers in a country where it’s known that abuses of those workers is rife. Do you think those workers have happy lives? I don’t understand why you’d want to be involved in that.

[Codlingmoths]

I wouldnt. I wouldn’t underestimate this new law, most visibly for you the expat community has been shrinking rapidly, and the recent passing into law of article 23 is only going to expand that, companies are already changing their information access etc, very sensibly I think (except for the part where they didn’t do it earlier). I expect the international schools will have to Teach Chinese propaganda. Then for the children I think an environment where they have more parks and space and outdoors play is so much better.

[BumbleShyBee]

Could you consider Singapore rather than HK? Noting that your children need to be back in the UK two years before starting university to avoid paying international school fees (though I've heard this might be university-dependent)

[NewFamilyInHK]

Thanks for all the insights - really appreciate it! This is exactly what I need.

With respect to the domestic helper point, yes I know of terrible stories of how they are not respected or not given a proper place to live. We have found an apartment in which they'd have their own private bedroom with a proper bed, their own (small) balcony with sea view, and their own bathroom. Zero intention of stuffing them in a wardrobe (I've heard horror stories).

And in terms of the shrinking expat community and the HKers that's moved to the UK, perhaps I'm naive, but when I dug deeper, it seems like a huge driver was the fact that the protests created significant uncertainty and chaos in the city (now that's over) and the fact that the city had the strictest covid prevention measures (many expats couldn't hack it, quite understably, and therefore left). But both of these are now irrelevant.

For many HKers, they uproot the family also because the living conditions are cramped in tiny little flats, kids work crazy hours doing rote learning homework with a future career that's competitive and with long hours. This is irrelevant for us as we'd be living in a pretty substantial apartment, kids at international school, and career in the UK/US/anywhere in the world later.

I do see many HKers uprooting their families, but I felt like my analysis above means that it doesn't really apply to us as an expat going over for a few years. What do you think? Am I naive?

[NewFamilyInHK]

@MiltonNorthern yeah very valid points, and I do feel for the HKers moving over. Many do move because of the terrible hardship of tiny flats and crazy homework though. But in terms of indoctrination, we'd be at international schools and wouldn't have the pressure or curriculum of local kids.

[Codlingmoths]

@BumbleShyBee

Could you consider Singapore rather than HK? Noting that your children need to be back in the UK two years before starting university to avoid paying international school fees (though I've heard this might be university-dependent)

Isn’t it 3 years? As I looked at it and thought fuck it we can’t manage that, it would obviously disrupt the younger children’s education.

[DramaLlamaBangBang]

I think you need to read your own replies to find your answer! You sound pretty set on HK. As someone with no experience of HK in your circumstances ( International school etc) I'd go. Children would have an amazing experience of a different culture, and do you know for sure that they woukd want to go to a UK University? You may end up paying international fees for somewhere else.

[LaPalmaLlama]

I lived in HK for 14 years from 2008-22. My DC were both born there. I would agree with some of your pros and cons but not all. In terms of understanding the reasons for people leaving, the reasons are different for locals and expats. Locals who emigrated to UK did so largely because of the NSL and the greater influence of the mainland government over HK. It’s nothing to do with small flats or heavy homework loads although that might be what they say to avoid getting into a political discussion . Expats who left left largely because of the ongoing covid restrictions. This seems a bit crazy with hindsight because everything was normal a year later but there was obviously no way of knowing that at the time. Regardless, expats are starting to move there again although they tend to be younger families. Not many people move there with older ( secondary) dc but that’s always been the case.

In terms of uk being gentler on children, ha ha ha. Expat parents in HK are way way more relaxed about academics/ ECAs and less sharp elbowed than prep school parents in the UK. In terms of ECAs, Grassroots kids sport is pretty well developed in HK. I know what you mean about certificates in shopping centres but that’s easily avoided. Once you tap into the expat community you’ll discover a load of more informal stuff. In terms of overall safety, yes, but also most of the Uk isn’t that crime ridden and populated by gangs ( also to be clear there are gangs in HK, but your dc are unlikely to be recruited due to insufficient proficiency in Cantonese 🤣). There’s an opposing argument that because it’s safe, HK teenagers get too much freedom to just hang around at night at relatively young ages and that that produces problems of its own. However, it is great just to be able to let your 11/12 year old get taxis on their own.

Better food at better prices- not really tbh. Supermarket food is a lot more expensive then UK. Restaurant food can be cheaper but realistically the places you’ll go to won’t be.

Domestic help- migration is a reality of the south East Asian labour market and the situation is more complicated than pp have implied. Without denying that exploitation and abuse exist, with the right employer it can be a mutually beneficial situation and tbh if you’re both working it’s essential unless your dc are secondary age because there’s no other form of childcare unless you sponsor a nanny who will come to HK and work for you. It’s not a frictionless system by any means but it made my life a lot easier. Use Fair Employment Agency to hire as then you know the helper isn’t being charged recruitment fees which is actually the main problem in the system as they start off in debt.

Politically, unlikely NSL eduction will become a big part of international schools. There may be like a 1 hour session on it but it would be too hard to incorporate, say, NSL approved Chinese history, into a curriculum that doesn’t even have Chinese history in it.

HTH

[LaPalmaLlama]

How old are your children now? The average tenure for an expat in HK is something like 3 years so it doesn’t necessarily need to be all or nothing in terms of where they grow up. Mine moved back when they were 11&9 having never lived in uk before and settled in v quickly. That said, if you stay 7 years they qualify for PR which is essentially indefinite right to remain.

[NewFamilyInHK]

@LaPalmaLlama thanks - appreciate your insights into the reasons why people are leaving / have left.

Our children are 2 and 5, so if our natural points to return to the UK would hopefully not too quickly for 7+ or 8+, but hopefully just to be back to start secondary school or maybe even 13+. Glad to hear your little ones settled in so quickly! I don't know if it's tougher for our 5 year old as she'd have to settle in HK, then re-settle in the UK. Easy for the 2 year old.

A last thought... in HK, although there is a helper available, realistically I'd still be involved for example taking the 2 year old to playgroups which only last an hour or 1.5 hours. So no "mental break". Whereas in the UK it can be feral in the mornings and evenings but at least I get a solid 8-4pm to myself when they are out.

[Roja7]

I would go just for the lower taxes and potential to save & the helper.

Also the weather in HK is pretty nice and there're lots of opportunities for outdoor hikes etc

Friend of mine was just there for Rugby 7s and it just looked fab.

[LaPalmaLlama]

@NewFamilyInHK

@LaPalmaLlama thanks - appreciate your insights into the reasons why people are leaving / have left.

Our children are 2 and 5, so if our natural points to return to the UK would hopefully not too quickly for 7+ or 8+, but hopefully just to be back to start secondary school or maybe even 13+. Glad to hear your little ones settled in so quickly! I don't know if it's tougher for our 5 year old as she'd have to settle in HK, then re-settle in the UK. Easy for the 2 year old.

A last thought... in HK, although there is a helper available, realistically I'd still be involved for example taking the 2 year old to playgroups which only last an hour or 1.5 hours. So no "mental break". Whereas in the UK it can be feral in the mornings and evenings but at least I get a solid 8-4pm to myself when they are out.

Re. school timing, my DS did his 13+ entry from HK in Year 6 - the process was messed up due to covid but even in "normal times" they can sit ISEB in HK and then just go back for the assessment days so that's pretty doable. If you are targeting really really academic UK schools then you will probably need to tutor as there is no international school in HK that would be comparable to a London prep where students are routinely targeting St Pauls/Westminster/ London grammars. They just dont have that focus so specific prep for UK secondaries is on you. For UK grammars (11+) you need to be back in UK by September of Year 6 really. Just to give you an idea DC went to Kellett and DS and DD got into reasonably academic schools (comparable to Marlborough on results but not)without tutoring but if I'd been targeting higher I'd have needed to prep them a lot more . I do recommend Kellett btw- it's a lovely school.

Helpers and preschoolers - in HK, whilst full day nursery doesn't really exist other than for v low income families, all DC are typically in a half day (2-3 hours) of unaccompanied pre-school from the August/September of the calendar year in which they turn 3 so your 2 year old would likely start this September. This applies to both local and expat kids. Most will do either English, Mandarin immersion or bilingual English/mandarin. Get a morning session if you can and one that has a bus. My DC really liked the ESF pre-schools.

There are also lots of mini sport/ music and movement/ art/ swimming etc. classes that they go to with a parent or helper but be warned it will be 90% helpers at these things. If you live in a big apartment complex with a clubhouse there are often classes in the building which makes life easier. If you want to meet other mums it would need to be playdates and even then some of them will be like "oh great - I'l give you my helper's number for your helper". I'm not clear from your OP if you'll be a SAHM or you're planning to work - being a SAHM in HK is not like being a SAHM in UK and you can almost end up feeling a bit pushed out by your helper. You have to be v firm on boundaries from the start if you want to do most of the childcare yourself as their working assumption is you don't want to do anything- most won't have any experience of working within a family where one parent is at home so they are used to doing all the housework/ pet care and childcare single handedly. Even within the expat population, the female workforce participation rate is pretty high because you can automatically work on a dependent's visa without employer sponsorship- to give you an idea, of my expat "mum friends" in HK, probably 70% were working either FT or "chunky" PT (me included )and the rest were basically doing a lot of tennis/yoga/hiking in between bouts of childcare.

Anyway- that ended up being long- apologies but hopefully helpful.

[mrpenny]

@NewFamilyInHK

@MiltonNorthern yeah very valid points, and I do feel for the HKers moving over. Many do move because of the terrible hardship of tiny flats and crazy homework though. But in terms of indoctrination, we'd be at international schools and wouldn't have the pressure or curriculum of local kids.

Don’t be so sure about the curriculum of so called ‘ international schools’. Certainly in China they are not ‘ international’ at all. History and English heavily restricted and other areas increasingly influenced.