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Living overseas

Is Frankfurt as boring as I think it is?

33 replies

boringornot · 06/10/2017 12:52

DH is flirting with the idea of moving to Frankfurt, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

We live in London, have 2 DC, 7 and 5. They were both born here, so they never moved cities, schools or language. They are already bilingual, but they don't know any German. DH and I are from South America and have been here for over 10 years.

I'm worried not only about the disruption, but what kind of life we may have in Frankfurt. Nothing has been decided yet, so I'm trying to gather information.

I know Berlin has an interesting cultural life, as does London. I'm a journalist and writer, but in the last few years I've been mostly a SAHM, and I'm already bored to tears. I thought that now DC2 is in school, I would finally have a chance to get back to having a cultural life, working, and meeting interesting people who have similar interests.

In this context, the idea of moving to a city famous by its banking is a bit scary. I have no affinity with city types (I live near Canary Wharf). I was looking forward to finally be able to meet like-minded people, after all those years as a SAHM.

Of course the move is not only about me. We have the interests of 4 people to think of. I'm aware of that.

The other point is that this move would be temporary. For 2 or 3 years, and then another move, either back to London or elsewhere, meaning the DC will go through disruption at least twice.

Professionally, it's a good opportunity for DH. A bigger salary and a good position. I'm just trying to weight pros and cons and make up my own mind.

Any input will be very welcome! Even if you want to flame me for my opinions, that's ok :)

Thanks in advance.

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Welshcake77 · 15/10/2017 06:45

Best place to look for flats/houses is immobilienscout24.de

Just a note re descriptions of property - all rooms are counted so a "vier Zimmer Wohnung" is a four room flat, not four bedrooms. Could be two receptions & two beds or one reception & three beds. It also used to be normal to not have a kitchen provided but that is slowly changing but don't be surprised to see some advertised without. Also, the tenant no longer pays the agent fee but you will need a three month deposit.

Westend is the wealthiest part of town where you'll find beautifully restored old buildings and new builds with underground parking etc. Then out of town Bad Homburg, Kronberg, Königstein.

Not sure when you are planning to come over but Phorms has an open day on Nov 16th I think so might be handy to check other schools too if this is the season for it!

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boringornot · 15/10/2017 00:12

exfrankfurter thank you very much for your candid account! That's the sort of detail that I would never find out in "official" sources of information! :)

DH and I have Portuguese as first language, and the DC speak both Portuguese and English (but English is their first language). What are the "wealthy areas" with good schools? That's definitely worth a look.

Did you move to Frankfurt with children? Would you mind telling me which schools they went to, and how was the experience? Are you back to the UK?

One more question, to everyone who has helped: can you recommend some websites or companies where I can search for flats, so I can have an idea of prices and neighbourhoods?

Many thanks!

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exfrankfurter · 12/10/2017 18:26

If you are coming from London, Frankfurt is living death. Dull, boring and they really do stop you for crossing the road on a red light even when there is no car in sight. But you can get most places by car and parking is a doddle compared with London. Cycling is also a good option - relatively short distances and flat.
It’s small. Most workers commute in because house prices are high. Those who live in the centre are usually young bankers or old Frankfurt families who will have little interest in making friends unless they think your kids can help theirs with their English. We once had a complaint because DS 9 who is bilingual was speaking German despite the mother having asked him to speak English. He pointed out that her DS did not understand when he spoke English....
Schools are OK at primary level especially if you live in a wealthy area. But do not expect any help with learning German. If you are white, MC and Anglophone you will be tolerated...but if you are from any other background it will be more difficult.
Secondary system is three tier with the grammars creaming off the middle classes. They are extraordinarily rigid so your DC will be expected to learn English with their peers instead of doing extra German. They will also be penalised for “using constructions we have not studied yet”. If their written German is not up to scratch they will have to repeat the year even if they are excelling in maths etc. Lots of teacher absenteeism as teachers are Civil Servants and unsackable. No sport or extra curricular in schools. The second tier schools prepare for technical education. The third tier are a dumping ground for the poor, non white foreignors, and anyone with social problems.
There are some bilingual schools - great if you are German and want your kids to learn English. Otherwise not. The only decent English language school is Frankfurt International but that is quite American in its approach and expensive if you are self funding. The International School of Frankfurt is cheaper, but a bit marmite. We did not like it - but have friends who were very happy. The European School is usually limited to EU employees, over crowded and has few if any English native speakers in the English sections. There is however an Italian section which occasionally has vacancies and there is a French Lycee - you don’t say what your other language is.
Not that many expat British families in Frankfurt any more. Most stay home with the working partner commuting. But still quite a lot of Americans (military, consulate so a bit insular) Japanese and Koreans.
The Taunus is beautiful. Some wonderful villages. Gorgeous countryside. But if you visit in summer think about the nightmare drive in the snow in Winter if you have to go into town.
Frankfurt airport is a great assett as you can get flights home easily. But it blights large parts of the city - People with homes in Sachsenhausen now find it hard to sell - but that means there are more rentals...but the aircraft noise is Hounslowesque.
Sorry not to be more enthusiastic, bu Hamburg and Berlin are much better!

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Welshcake77 · 12/10/2017 18:16

I can still see it

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CarolineMonaghan · 12/10/2017 18:15

I copied and pasted in the full article this midday, and it seems to be gone for some reason?

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Katsite · 12/10/2017 17:49

My DDs went to Kinderzeit-Schule a primary Montessori-like bilingual school in schwalbach. It's a bit of a hike if you are in the city but to give you an idea of fees: it's about 450euros per month.

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Welshcake77 · 12/10/2017 12:46

Yes thanks for copying that over, it's a good read!

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boringornot · 12/10/2017 12:21

Caroline thanks for the article! Very enlightening and very useful :)

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CarolineMonaghan · 12/10/2017 11:31

Hope the copied text of the above linked Times article will fit in here:


Ready for more? Get unlimited access by subscribing for less than £1 a week.

OVERSEAS
Move to Frankfurt for well-priced homes and culture
The ‘boring’ financial hub is friendly, and great for kids

Hugh Graham
October 8 2017, 12:01am,
The Sunday Times
High society: the city straddles the River Main
High society: the city straddles the River Main
ALAMY
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Frankfurt is boring and devoid of beauty — London bankers would sooner quit their jobs than relocate to the city. So say the sceptics after every headline predicting that thousands of jobs will move there from the City after Brexit: estimates range from 1,000 to 100,000.

When Nicholas Jefcoat, a British banker, took a job for two years in Frankfurt in 1992, his friends thought he was crazy. Yet, 25 years later, he is still there, and is evangelical about his adopted city. “The view from abroad is that there’s no culture here, that it’s a place without a soul, governed by money, but that’s entirely untrue,” he tells me over sashimi at Higematsu, an authentic Japanese restaurant full of Japanese diners, hidden down a back alley.

Misunderstood: Frankfurt has a burgeoning bar scene
Misunderstood: Frankfurt has a burgeoning bar scene
ATLANTIDE PHOTOTRAVEL/GETTY
Jefcoat, 62, lives in a three-bedroom Bauhaus home in Sachsenhausen, an elegant old-world neighbourhood within walking distance of town, across the River Main. Now a financial consultant who works from home, he can cycle to the financial district in 15 minutes. If he wants to hear some Wagner, he’ll pop into the opera house on a Sunday afternoon; his Austrian wife, Ulli, used to work in fundraising at the English Theatre, which is currently reviving Pygmalion.

On other Sundays, he’ll take a 45-minute drive to the riesling vineyards in the Rheingau, go trout-fishing an hour away in northern Bavaria, or play golf — 30 courses within 30 minutes, goes the refrain.

If he were younger, and single, he might sample the delights of the red-light district: not the brothels, but the burgeoning bar scene. “Bars are sprouting up,” he says. “Frankfurt can’t compete with London or New York for nightlife, but not everyone wants to be up at 3am and going into work at Goldmans at 6am. Where it wins is with families. It boxes way above its weight in terms of international schools, hospitals, transport, countryside. It’s safe. In terms of housing, you get a lot more. The cost of living is about two-thirds that of London.”


Jefcoat is the chair of the German British Society Rhein-Main, which has 200 members and holds events such as Shakespeare in the Park and lectures on Brexit. “Most Germans were horrified by the leave vote,” he says. “Some said, ‘Good riddance, the English are cherry-pickers wanting special treatment, or megalomaniacs who think they can re-create the British Empire.’ I was saddened, but I think it will help Frankfurt get as much business as possible. My English friends say my surname should be Turncoat.”

The vineyards of the Rheingau are a short drive away
/photo/

London bankers who make the move might be pleasantly surprised. It’s far prettier than its bleak reputation. In the city centre, skyscrapers are interspersed with gracious Wilhelmine architecture (built during the reign of Wilhelm II): mansard roofs, pastel stucco and wrought-iron balconies bursting with geraniums. Behind a glass office building, you might see a medieval tower or a storybook church.

Most of the half-timbered buildings on the old town square were re-created after the Second World War, but you’d have to be Pevsner to spot the difference. New skyscrapers such as the ECB tower have wonky angles and expressionist shapes. The riverbank, lined with museums and parks, is more bucolic than London’s concrete South Bank. And the 12,000-acre Frankfurt City Forest, the country’s largest urban woodland, offers German fairy-tale charm. (The city’s population is 700,000, the metropolitan region’s 5.7m.)

Even the brutalist grey postwar structures have retro cred now. “There are buildings that are so ugly, they’re nice,” says Javier Francisco Sayes Gomez, senior consultant at JLL Group in Frankfurt.

It’s a good metaphor for a city whose reputation for being boring could, perversely, make it cool. “Berlin has seen it all and done it all,” says James Ardinast, 45, a tattooed hipster restaurateur. “In Frankfurt, you can still be a pioneer.”

Ardinast is shaking up the red-light district, or Bahnhofsviertel. Round the corner from methadone clinics and brothels, you can drink cocktails and eat pastrami in his groovy restaurant-bars, Stanley Diamond and Maxie Eisen, named after Jewish-American gangsters. Sporting a wool hat in August, he tells me about edgy art galleries and pop-up happenings: DJs spinning in laundromats or at the bottom of empty swimming pools.

Hedonistic bankers could rent a flat here from about €800 (£710) a month, but Ardinast says the really edgy stuff is happening 20 minutes to the southeast, in Offenbach, where art students rent cheap flats and party at the famous Robert Johnson techno club.

Many of the buildings in the old town square were rebuilt after the warMany of the buildings in the old town square were rebuilt after the war

Bankers are more likely to be found in the leafy, sleepy Westend, a civilised oasis not far from the city centre. It’s a mix of fin de siècle villas, old-fashioned street lamps, psychotherapists’ offices and joggers in the Grüneburgpark. Family houses are hard to find, but a 1,500 sq ft flat with three bedrooms might cost €1.5m to buy or €2,900 a month to rent.

The latter is the norm here. Tim, a fiftysomething from Bristol who works in expat financial services, has been a tenant here for 13 years, and has never once had a rent rise. His landlord can’t evict him unless he moves in himself. “You won’t earn as much in Frankfurt,” he says. “Half of your money goes in taxes. But nobody comes to make money. You’re here for the lifestyle.”

That view is echoed by Isabel Scholes, 54, an expat who has lived in Frankfurt for 25 years and rents a large flat with two receptions in the Westend. “I probably spend 20% of my net salary on rent,” says Scholes, who is head of communications for a German law firm. “It’s a much easier life here. I live in the best area. I walk to work. My health insurance is great. You can go to the gym after work, then go for dinner. In London, it’s one or the other.

“London is a horror to me — people pay £5,000 a year to commute from Cambridge on a dirty train, and you don’t get a seat.”

She finds the German city open-minded and cosmopolitan (one in three Frankfurters is from abroad), and admires the way parents let young children roam free. She admits missing the sea and Marks & Spencer: “The supermarkets here are dreadful, though German bread is much better than English bread.”

Scholes also misses “English humour and self-deprecation”. “An ordinary British bloke can come here and get together with a really attractive German woman,” she says. “I have seen this a lot. Because he’s self-deprecating, German women think he’s Oscar Wilde and George Clooney rolled into one.”

When she visits London, she feels like “a hick from the sticks”. She loves the fact that Frankfurt is not “full-on hipster” — but you might see a few beards in Bornheim, northeast of town. Frankfurt’s equivalent of Hackney, it’s a sea of bars and cafes (Sugar, Chaplin), with the odd organic and vegan shop. You can rent a one-bedroom flat here for €800 a month, but be warned: some rentals come without appliances, so you may have to supply a fridge and cooker.

Bordering Bornheim to the west is fashionable Nordend, where there are pubs with chandeliers, bike-repair-cum-coffee shops and bankers in hoodies. On Friday evenings, everyone converges on Friedberger Platz, drinking beer al fresco and eating pulled beef in a bun from food trucks. (Avocado on toast has not yet hit Frankfurt; the native cuisine is more Deliciously Helga than Deliciously Ella.) One-bedders here start at €300,000.

Senior bankers and their families gravitate to the Taunus hills, a moneyed enclave 30 minutes to the north. This is Real Housewives of Frankfurt territory: coffee mornings, tennis leagues and book clubs amid Hansel and Gretel mansions and modernist piles with pools, in spa towns such as Bad Homberg, Königstein and Kronberg. Homes cost between €1.5m and €5m.

Some masters of the universe prefer to live in a skyscraper: the 48-storey Grand Tower, the tallest residential building in Germany, is due for completion in 2019. It has a funky curved facade and a range of flats, with prices from €585,000 to €3.96m.

There are more than 20 skyscrapers in planning, and they’re needed. Like London, Frankfurt has a housing shortage: the vacancy rate for rentals is 0.4%. Average prices have gone up by 10% in a year and 47% since 2012, and the city needs to build 5,000 homes a year to meet demand, according to Simon Marschall, a consultant at Ballwanz Immobilien estate agency. Frankfurt, too, has pressure on its green belt. And if London bankers descend en masse, it could get worse.

“The first wave will be next year. It could be up to 2,000 people,” Jefcoat predicts. “The second wave will come after Brexit, in March 2019. If the European Banking Authority moves from London to Frankfurt, which they are trying for, that will boost the numbers. If euro clearing comes here, that involves 100,000 jobs.

“Not all will come here, but locals still worry about what will happen to house prices, rents, schools and hospitals. The impact could be like Brexit in reverse.”

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boringornot · 12/10/2017 11:23

Caroline and Prettylittle It's funny that the article you mentioned uses precisely the same words I used (about Frankfurt being "boring" and the "cultural" stuff). However, I promise I'm not a journo for The Times and I'm not doing research for an article (as journos do in Mumsnet)! :)

I can't read the whole article because of the paywall... Can someone send me the full text by message, please?

cestlavie it's not exactly an expat job. He's not being transferred, but offered a position that's open in there. He may be able to negotiate some things, but I doubt they will pay international schools for our 2 DC. The person who would be DH's "boss" in Frankfurt pays his DC schools fees himself.

Thanks for the help, I've looked at the neighbourhoods you mentioned and they look very nice.

Thanks for the creative hub link, Welsh! I'm a bit more confident now about the move. So now I have to find out about the schools. It seems they are on holiday now, so I'll have to wait...

I'll get in contact with Phorms. I've used their fees calculator and the fees for DH's salary are affordable, so it's an option.

Any more recommendations? Anyone know anything about the Montessori schools? Thanks!

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disahsterdahling · 12/10/2017 10:34

I lived in Frankfurt (Sachsenhausen) about 20 years ago. It's not boring, and there are some lovely places near it, eg Bamberg or Marburg,

Given the chance though, I'd probably choose Hamburg or Berlin if I was going to live in Germany, especially Hamburg.

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Welshcake77 · 10/10/2017 18:39

We've only just started the school journey and live in Bad Homburg so don't know much about Frankfurt schools tbh. Have you looked a Phorms? Not sure if it's an international but is bilingual and fees are income based so can be a more affordable option.
How old are your DC? They do start school later here so that's something to bear in mind. State schools especially in this area are very used to and well equipped to dealing with non-German speakers, there's extra language help etc. There are 24 kids in DD's class one of whom had no German at all when she started and I think nearly 50% are growing up bilingually.
One big difference is school hours...they start earlier and finish a lot earlier. Anything between 12-1.30.

Re creative companies, there's a number of design/advertising agencies (Ogilvy & Mather and Young & Rubicon) media companies like RTL Hessen, ARD is in Mainz and Deutsche Welle is also here (probably the most interesting for a journalist with an international background!), lots of PR agencies. Have a look at creativehubfrankfurt.de that should be a good starting point.

Re areas to live, agree with everything caroline said. Do you know where DH would be working? It's pretty easy and quick to get most places but there might be some areas that you would be better/worse commute wise. We moved from the city to Bad Homburg 6 years ago and love it. Great connections to Frankfurt, 25 mins on train, loads of parks and playgrounds, good childcare and schools. But city life is great too and not as hectic in Frankfurt as other places!
Great that you're coming to visit that will definitely help.

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CarolineMonaghan · 10/10/2017 13:01

@boringornot

The town is safe for kids, I cannot really think of any part where it would be unsafe to live / raise kids.

The best and most sough after parts would be Westend, Nordens, Sachsenhausen, or a more quirky Bornheim... but anywhere else is good, too.

If you prefer to live a bit outside of the city I would recommend (not so)Bad Homburg and environs, notability Friedrichsdorf which has an excellent connection into the city, is very green, and not too expensive yet.

We live right in inner city, and have had no problems whatsoever though, in all those years, ever.

Hope you'll find something lovely for you and your family :)

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cestlavielife · 10/10/2017 13:01

Why isnt the job company paying for.schooling if it s ex pat job ?

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boringornot · 10/10/2017 12:54

I'm happy to see lots of Frankfurt lovers here! As I mentioned, we're going for a visit in the next few weeks. At the moment, my main worry is the schools.

I live in SE London, both DC go to a local primary school, that is outstanding. The staff and the school are amazing, the children are very diverse.

We have another outstanding primary closer to my house which is impossible to get into as people rent houses near it so they can guarantee the place for the first child and all subsequent siblings and then move away. This school is very middle class and the catchment area is about 150 metres.

The other schools in the area are not as good and I was very lucky to get places in the school my DC are.

My point is: here in London people use all sorts of tricks to get their children in the good state schools, and if you don't know the tricks (and can't pay for a good private one), your child may end up in a not-so-good school. (as I said, I was very lucky, because DC's school became outstanding the year DS1 was in Reception. The catchment area is much smaller now. After being lucky in London, I definitely don't want to count on luck if I move to Frankfurt! ;) )

We wouldn't be able to afford the International Schools, so apparently the options are: bilingual schools, and state ones. Any opinions?

How are the state schools, compared to the ones here?

Thanks a lot, you have no idea how much you are helping! Flowers

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CarolineMonaghan · 10/10/2017 12:54

@PrettyLittleBrownEyedMe... and all the others:

This is indeed a good article you've mentioned there, here's the link to it, in case you cannot get your hands on the paper in time:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/move-to-frankfurt-for-well-priced-homes-and-culture-fzws029k7

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boringornot · 10/10/2017 12:42

Welsh It's great to know there are things to do in Frankfurt. I've only lived in Rio and London in my life, and the idea of living is a much smaller place is a bit scary! (funny, usually people think that living in a megalopolis would be a scary thing, but that's all I've known my whole life, and feel quite comfortable in my mega cities...)

You mention creative companies, would you mind telling me which ones? It would be good for me to start looking into that, as at some point I might be looking for a job as well.

Katsite and Welsh DH and I are planning to come over for a few days and have a look at the city (I've been there very briefly years ago). And visit some schools.

bookish quality of life is one of the reasons we are considering it, definitely.

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PrettyLittleBrownEyedMe · 10/10/2017 12:41

That's really weird, there's a whole two-page spread in this week's Sunday Times entitled 'Banking on Frankfurt - Hugh Graham visits the 'boring' financial hub and discovers a family-friendly, cultured city with well-priced homes' - see if you can get hold of a copy! Lots of useful info!

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boringornot · 10/10/2017 12:36

Hi all, sorry for being away for a few days! Thank you very much for your answers!

First of all, safety is not a concern for us. DH and I are from Rio, so we feel very safe in London, and will probably feel the same in any city in Europe ;)

TowerRing thanks a lot for your opinion!

Caroline that's an encouraging story! :) Would you mind telling me which neighbourhoods are good to live with family in the town?

Thanks for the link about the schools! Do your children go to one of the International Schools? We won't be able to afford one, so I'm looking into the bilingual and public ones. Are the state schools any good?

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Welshcake77 · 08/10/2017 17:39

So nice to hear other fans of Frankfurt!! I love it!

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CarolineMonaghan · 08/10/2017 06:19

I second everything Welshcake77 said, it it a very good, diverse and indeed interesting place, and in fact a LOT safer than the other cities mentioned above, notably Berlin and Paris.
The greater Frankfurt Area is about 8 million, but the city itself is easily manageable in terms of getting around, since the public transport (with prams or/and toddlers etc.) is rather splendid.

I can do nothing but recommend Frankfurt!

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Welshcake77 · 07/10/2017 20:31

It might also be useful to point out that it is very small compared to the other cities mentioned here...Frankfurt only has 730,000 inhabitants with something like 300,000 commuting in every day. So it is a very different vibe (and much nicer commute!) to London, Berlin or Paris.

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verybookish · 07/10/2017 20:28

Frankfurt is one of the most underrated cities ever. Yes, there are prettier or more exciting cities but the quality of life is very high. I would not dismiss it out of hand.

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Katsite · 07/10/2017 20:09

It's definitely not as interesting as Paris, London or Berlin, and, in fact, quite ugly, but the quality of life is not so bad. Very international and there is a big university.

I second what Welshcake said: come over for a visit and look for yourselves.

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Welshcake77 · 07/10/2017 17:32

I've lived in Frankfurt for 18 years (well I now live in the Taunus but still work in the city) and I love it! Definitely not boring. There is lots to do whether you're interested in culture (opera house, one main theatre house and numerous others including a fantastic English theatre, lots of concert venues, art galleries and museums) plenty of sports clubs, great restaurants and bars. Lots of parks and there's the Taunus for hills, walking and castles.
It's a really international city with a great mix of cultures, lots of festivals throughout the year.
I've lived the single life here which was great fun and now married with two kids and think it's a great place to bring up children. There's international schools if you want to go that route but also very good primaries and secondary schools.

Oh and I used to work for a media company and know a few journalists, admittedly in the financial sector ;) but I think you'd find like minded people. The main industry here is obviously banking but there are lots of more creative companies around.
Are you able to come over for a visit? Get a feel for the place?

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