France - moving up a class - CP straight to CE2

[jamaisjedors]

Hi there,
hoping for some thoughts from those of you in France who might have experience of this.

DS2 (just turned 7) is in a double-level class (CP-CE1) in our very small local village school.

The teacher has just told me that for the last couple of weeks she's been getting him to work with the CE1 and giving him their homework to do, and she thinks it might be a good idea for him to go straight into CE2 next year.

Have any of you any experience of skipping a class like this?

I am a little stressed out about it - DH (French) says not to worry, DS was born in January so is only a few weeks younger than the others.

I only saw the teacher outside the school gates to talk about this - I'll try and make an appointment next week to discuss it properly.

[jamaisjedors]

We are in a similar situation to you frenchfancy - which I guess is also why your two were moved up.

It's a very small school - one teacher for the whole of maternelle, and then one teacher CP-CE1, and another for all the rest CE2-CM1-CM2.

I also think in this situation they are more inclined to move pupils up, partly because they can do the work of 2 years in one (so they don't really "skip" a class, just do it in one year instead), and also because, as you say, they already prepare 2/3/4 different levels' worth of work so it is slightly unreasonable to expect them to do even more individual catering or streaming.

messydrawers - I'm not sure I have any words of wisdom yet - I guess we will know more towards the end of the year but there are lots of useful viewpoints on this thread, and it's nice to have the perspective of people whose children are further ahead too.

[frenchfancy]

Bonsoir i can see that steaming solves many of the problems. Our school is somewhat different as rather than having parallel CP classes we have just 6 pupils in the CP class. There is one teacher for the whole of maternelle and CP and another teacher for CE1-CM2. So my DD3s teacher is already teaching 4 classes at the same time, adding extra work to stimulate one child would effectively mean she had 5 classes rather than 4. Much easier for all concerned to put one child up a year.

There is no way I would send my DD1 away instead of her seconde year. She is with her friends she has grown up with and gone through college with, she would see it as a cruel punishment indeed.

[Bonsoir]

I am perfectly prepared to believe that some CP class groups are less "stimulating" than others. In DD's school this is dealt with by quite overt streaming in CP (there are 5 parallel classes and her school has a special contrat that permits streaming) as clearly some DC are fluent readers in September of CP whereas others can barely recognise a letter.

I don't think that skipping a class in primary, especially for winter and spring born DC, is a big deal. Which is why primary teachers rather like it as a solution to the issue of bored DC. As I have explained in earlier posts, problems, if they arise, usually emerge rather a lot later in the system.

One way of dealing with this is by sending DC to England/the US as a boarder for a year, usually in Troisième or Seconde.

[messydrawers]

I'm in a similar situation, my DD1 is in CP and has an early spring birthday. Her teacher in GS talked vaguely about her skipping a class as she'd been in a mixed GS/CP group and done a lot of the CP work and was already reading fluently in both languages. But it was never taken any further and I didn't push it. However, CP hasn't been very stimulating for her and she has started pretending not to know things to fit in more with the others. The directrice called me in yesterday to say that her teacher (who is new, replacing the teacher she'd had from the rentrée who has gone on maternity leave) recommend moving her up as soon as possible. It would mean she'd have to change class group and also school (as they are split between two villages) for the rest of the year, then go back to her current school on September.

It's not ideal and if it was going to have been done, it would have been better to do it at the beginning of the year so she could have worked with the CE1 the whole year, CP seems like a more logical class to skip if you are a good reader then CE1... but on the plus side, I think she could benefit from having more of a challenge, and being with slightly older kids (she has some good friends in her current class but they do seem quite a lot younger then her). I completely see the point about not racing through school for the sake of it or some imagined prestige, but I do think some children need a bit of a challenge, and always being the best in the class is not always that helpful. By the way, would like to point out that DD1 is not some kind of genius...

I think the benefits of skipping a class really depend on the child, and also may depend on the teacher and new class group they will go into. In your case, jamaisjedors, it sounds like it could be quite beneficial. Any words of wisdom welcome!

[NomDeClavier]

Is there any way you can send him elsewhere for a year aged 10/11 so he benefits from the more adapted primary curriculum but enters college in an age appropriate class? Friends or relatives in the UK?

I agree, from teaching at lycee, that those who have skipped ahead struggle. I don't know why but their lack of emotional maturity really shows.

[jamaisjedors]

All interesting reading and everyone makes valid points, even when they seem to contradict each other!

I think I agree that further down the line there will be no particular advantage or prestige to having skipped a year (although I teach at Sciences Po and lots of my students there have skipped a year and are 17 on entering 1st year). It's not a race.

However I'm not sure how doing one less year of primary will give him less opportunity to do extra-curricular activities which will make a difference to university entrance later on.

I also don't think there's any question of him needing extra help with homework etc. - but yes, we are certainly able to help him if necessary, although if he needed a lot of extra help I don't see the point in moving him up. Currently it's taking him 5-10 mins once or twice a week to do his homework, rather than 30 seconds (CP).

In this particular case, what it boils down to will be either:

• 18 months marking time with his current teacher, who is a year off retirement, and patently has no systems in place for dealing with pupils at different levels. And this within a fairly disruptive classroom environment.
  

Or

• moving up to the class above, where DS1 is, and where the teacher has a whole system of "travail autonome" set up so that pupils can work independently when they have finished or when she is busy with other levels (CE2, CM1, CM2). - kind of like clearsomespace was suggesting.
  

However, no decision has been made, the teacher seems to have him sitting with the CE1 now and doing their work, and she will see how he gets on. There is no reason why we can't also say no at the end of the year.

[Bonsoir]

DP is an alumnus. Each jury is composed of an alumnus, a third-year student and a member of faculty (in theory).

[clearsommespace]

How does one qualify for the 'jury d'admissions' out of interest?

[clearsommespace]

So if I've understood correctly 'your whole life might change' because of a small difference in grade means that you might not make it into a 'grande école'.

It doesn't mean you can't make a success of your life and be happy though. I mean, we don't socialise with anyone who has been to a 'grande école' and everyone is doing well in life (materially) and the ones who aren't happy suffer because of relationships and health problems not because of their careers. If DCs do go to a grande école and end up as high-fliers, then that's great but it's not the be all and end all.

[Bonsoir]

My DP has been on the "jury d'admissions" of a grande école for over 20 years and is quite knowledgeable about these things. We are also in the thick of the lycée/post-bac years with the DSSs and of course therefore are surrounded by other families at the same life stage. Grandes écoles are not impressed by DC being a year ahead. If they are, they are (and DC are obviously not to be judged for this as it was rarely a decision they made for themselves) but they must demonstrate exactly the same qualities as any other candidate. Since they have had fewer years in which to achieve all the desirable extra-curricular stuff that the grandes écoles care about, they are sometimes at a disadvantage.

We also know quite a few DC who have not got into Polytechnique or HEC and who might have done had they not passed their bac at 16 and finished Prépa at 18.

[Rattitude]

Universities won't care. However, classes prepas and some grandes ecoles would.

[Bonsoir]

"a tres bien and a year in advance is seen as being more impressive"

Other parents might be impressed but the education system is at best indifferent.

[Rattitude]

Skipping a year is pretty common in France. Typically, this is only recommended by the teacher after careful consideration.

CE1 is often the year that gets skipped as children will be able to catch up anything that they may have missed by the end of the primary.

All the children I came across who have skipped a year have been high achievers (mention tres bien for the brevet and bien/tres bien for the bac).

The Grandes Ecoles seem to have an unsually high proportion of students who have skipped a year too.

I also agree with frenchfancy that a 'tres bien' when you have skipped a year is seen as impressive.

OP, I suspect that you and your husband would be able to help out your child should he struggle a bit in CE2. In addition, he is already doing part of the CE1 programme so he is likely to be bored next year, should he do the CE1 programme again.

Unfortunately, the French education system will not particularly cater to the needs of an individual child to 'stretch' him, so it is better for him to be in a class that is adapted to his intellectual development.

In your circumstances, I would let him skip a year, especially as it will mean he is not with the group of disruptive children next year.

The only thing you may want to keep an eye on later on is to ensure that when he is in college, his maturity/social development match the other children's in his class.

[frenchfancy]

But all this assumes they will struggle as the youngest. DD2 was getting bored and starting to be disruptive. I have no doubt that had she not gone up a year she would have lost interest and would have got far worse marks than she does. Instead putting her up a year provided her with a challenge which she has now met.

I also see it as having one in the hand, should they encounter problems later on at college, either through lack of work or through illness, they can redouble and still not be behind.

Being a year up does have its rewards, a tres bien in a brevet is one thing, a tres bien and a year in advance is seen as being more impressive.

[CoteDAzur]

"I don't see what there is to gain really, apart from going from being the best in your class, to being perhaps just mediocre"

Exactly. At the end of CP, DD was offered the chance to go straight up to CE2. We refused. Born towards the end of the year, she was already one of the youngest in her class.

There is no medal for finishing school a year early. It is better for DD (psychologically) to be easily the best in her class rather than struggling as the youngest.

[unobtanium]

Hi jamais. I should have refused when the same thing happened with my second child (though he was not in a combined class, he was just supposedly frustrated with the lack of stimulation in CP).

He is early spring baby and, being a boy, now seems very young in his year (especially by the time many others have redoubled) -- he is in Seconde and doing fine but he could be doing brilliantly had he not been moved up.

I think I would resist as others have advised, and try to fill in the gaps outside of school. Come collège everything will have evened out again and your dc will be flying!

[Bonsoir]

I agree that primary teachers are very keen to put DC up a year! They don't have much means to occupy DC who are not stretched by the curriculum and by far the easiest solution for the teacher is to "get rid" of the DC concerned to the class above.

[clearsommespace]

Can you please explain why as you obviously know a lot about this.

All educational staff I have spoken to are very much in favour of children going up a year when they are twiddling their thumbs at a lower level. But they are college and primary teachers, not lycée or higher education.

All my friends and colleagues who have DCs who have been put up a year are doing fine but the eldest is only in the first year of engineering school, he hasn't entered the workplace yet, and the rest are still in collège or primary.

[Bonsoir]

What you need to bear in mind is that your whole life might change because you got 16/10 and not 18/10 in maths in your bac because you were a year younger.

[Bonsoir]

That extra months of maturity contribute to extra marks in exams!

There is no controversy about this - it's been documented all over the world.

[clearsommespace]

What is that reason?

[clearsommespace]

Re: sitting around reading waiting for the others to catch up: in our primary they have 'autonomie' workbooks (made by the teachers) which they are allowed to do when they work faster than the others. They have exercises in them which practise the skills learnt in class in a less dry way e.g. colour by numbers where you have to work out the result of the calculation before you know which colour to use.

Or could he do work that you set him and mark, to improve his biliteracy?

[Bonsoir]

For the same reason that summer born children perform less well than autumn born children in the UK.

You are also in the position of sending your DC to HE aged 16 or 17.

[clearsommespace]

I might be missing something but I don't understand why being a few months younger than others in the class means you can't maximise your chance at BAC. You're not going to be any more intelligent a year later and if you were put up in primary, you'll have followed the same cursus.

[frenchfancy]

Both Dd1 and Dd2 have skipped a year. Dd1 skipped GS and Dd2 skipped CE1. In the case of Dd1 it has neither harmed nor hindered her. For Dd2 it has had a real positive benefit and she is top of her class in 4eme.

As your DS is born in January he won't really be behind developmentally so I don't think you should be too concerned.