Where is the best place in Europe to raise a family?

[Jess850]

Where in Europe is the best or a good place to raise/continue raising a Family of Boys. Current ages 3 mths, 6 yrs and 9 yrs. Just day dreaming during a feed and wondered your thoughts? A bit random but DH and I often wonder how here compares and what it is like living in the big wide World Europe.

[Thalitsa]

The monthly costs for my baby in her Amsterdam daycare are 1700 Euros for a full-time place. The hourly cost is above that which is refunded by tax, as most Amsterdam daycares are. We get 1/3 of 1500 refunded by tax, so we pay about 1200 net for the baby. My husband and I are both academics and our income is too high for us to get more than 1/3 for the first child. In SE UK our full-time place will be about 800 pounds per month, using vouchers, so it will indeed be cheaper. Note that the waiting lists for baby places in Amsterdam are years long - people put themselves in waiting lists when 13 weeks pregnant and often don't get a place until the child is two. That's why the daycares get away with being so expensive for their quality.

For our older daughter we have out of school wraparound care, which costs 900 Euros per month. We get back about 500 Euros per month in tax for her care but with the coming reforms it is likely that we would get less back. We will end up paying about the same on average in the UK for her care, but we haven't been too happy with the out of school care in NL and we're hoping that the after school clubs in the UK will work better.

I have to say that for us it has been very demoralizing to pay 1600 Euros per month for daycare in a country where we are already paying over fifty percent tax on much of our salary. We are academics, not bankers. We are not rich. Our net salaries in the UK will be quite a bit higher, and daycare won't take up as big a fraction of my net income.

@ the poster who mentioned PISA testing. Yes, NL performs better than the UK. But this is only one measure. For an above average child I have no doubt that the UK system is better and offers more to them. But again this is subjective, other families may be happier with the NL education system. (Mind you, at least half a dozen expat families we know have left NL in the last year mostly because of dissatisfaction about the schools.)

[Thalitsa]

And btw I would be quite surprised at being able to find cheap daycare anywhere near Amsterdam. My secretary has an 18 month old and lives in a cheaper town a train ride from the city. She has tried to find daycare all over the place, and can't find any daycare which doesn't cost more per hour than is refunded by tax. If I remember correctly, she pays, net, about 650 Euros per month for three days per week care, even given that her family's income is not high and so she gets a higher percentage back from tax.

[sabinel]

Tricky question and definitely a different answer for each family. We are French, we have lived in Paris, Stockholm, New York/New Jersey, right now Cambridge in the UK. It is hard to find a place where you'll have: good weather, thriving cultural life, green spaces, good affordable schools, affordable living accomodations, job opportunities and then you add the question of having /making friends, being able to integrate, not being too far from the family. You have to compromise... and make the most of where you are! Obviously, in each country, different areas can also be very different. Cambridge is a wonderful place in England (despite the current weather) but I am not sure my experience of the UK would be similar elsewhere.
Right now, the only place I would not go back to is Paris: too stressful with children, even NYC was more child friendly! But maybe it is because I am French and I enjoy being abroad.
We wanted to find a place where we could put down roots, but we haven't found it yet... Home is where the heart is!

[ThePigOnTheWall]

I absolutely love the Netherlands and spend a lot of time there.

I agree it's very laid back in some ways and that the people are very blunt which makes me laugh a lot. I can imagine its a great place to bring up kids

BUT my DP (who is Dutch) came to work in England and says that one of the drivers was to get his kids out of Dutch schools. He says that the academic standards and discipline is much higher in the uk.

[littlemissbroody26]

OP, if I were then I'd go to the NL again first choice, followed by Sweden second (better public services but too cold to go out for 6 months of the year!).

Its fine if you like the cold! and it doesn't rain very often :)

For an above average child I have no doubt that the UK system is better and offers more to them. But again this is subjective, other families may be happier with the NL education system.

I guess it depends on what kind of society you want your child to grow up in, I personally think a society where most people are well educated is healthier than a society like the UK where some people are very very well educated and some people finish school unable to read. Also I think it depends on what you define as better, for me a better system would have happier children, unfortunatly I don't think that the childrens happiness is high on the agenda in UK schools. My little sister is 9 and she goes to a very good state primary, she is very bright and is pushed academically but she does art 2 times a term, her teacher actually said to a class of 6/7 year olds that there was too much smiling and they were not to smile in lessons. I understand her focus is on targets and exams but those little people will only be 6/7 once in their life, I'd prefere my child to spend their days ice skating and building dens and baking at 6 and still leaving school well educated than possibly being pushed more but missing out on their childhood.

[natation]

Hmmm we bring up a family of 6 on a monthly outlay of around ?3000-?3500. Being able to spend ?2600 on child care is mind blowing for me. "We're not rich" well that is rather subjective, because I consider we're rich compared to an average Belgian family on our income, I'd consider us "comfortable" and anyone who earns more than me is "rich".

In the UK you can "buy" higher educational standards by choosing a private school which restricts entry to those of higher than average intelligence, for the vast majority of the population, this is not even option. There is far less egality in the UK.

[AlpinePony]

Um, I don't think there's anywhere in NL where the hourly rate is less than the tax rebate. We are still in the "crisis" and tax rebates on childcare are of course one of the areas undergoing cuts.

And, this might be unpopular to say, but I believe the 52% tax-rate kicks in at around 55k? So if you're on a min. Of 110k combined (as you allude to), I have little sympathy. You could've hired someone as a ft nanny for much less if it were all about $$$.

I'm also rather surprised you're not falling under the 30% expat taxation rule.

[Thalitsa]

We are not eligible for 30% for various reasons.

Our combined gross income is indeed around 120k. Our net monthly income is around 6000 of which 1600 is daycare. Yes, we can pay it. Yes, we are not poor, although I don't think we are that rich either. But we definitely could not afford a third child with these daycare costs together with the cost of housing etc. A full-time nanny would cost us net way more than 1600 since we would have to pay her pensions, social security etc. I think it would cost around 2500 or so net. We could not pay that, especially in combination with the fees at the subsidized international school .. and we don't have an extravagant lifestyle, don't own a car, no holidays etc.

I would guess that my secretary and her husband have a net income of around 3000. 850 for just one child's daycare is a pretty big chunk of that.

And my child is miserable in her school. Perhaps she won't be super happy in her new school either, but she is not happy doing nothing but draw pictures all the time.

[natation]

Costs, tax regimes, salaries in Netherlands and Belgium are reasonably similar. We feed 4 children on a monthly income just over half of yours and live comfortably on that income, plus we have 2 more mouths to feed! Ok we don't have the childcare costs, but we USED TO when our children were small. Sorry but you ARE RICH, I can't believe you think you are not.

I am guessing your daughter is between the age of 4 and 6 and in groep 1 or 2 and in those classes, children do pre-learning, whereas in the UK she'd be doing formal learning.

[RadioRentalMum]

I quite fancy Amsterdam, I loved it when I visited, seemed like a really nice place to bring up children (despite the ladies in the shop windows ).

However I'd also like some sunshine and if this is just a fantasy then I'd like to live in Spain or Italy with a smallholding, lots of animals, olive grove, my own pool with pool man , access to a beautiful sandy beach, little local shops, friendly locals and a natural gift for the language!

[Thalitsa]

My child is in group 4 in a bilingual international school. I would not have an issue if she were learning very little formally in group one or two. I have an issue in group 4 because she is unhappy and wants to learn more.

And this is the last post I will write on this thread or this board, given how friendly people are here. Thanks for your welcome, everyone.

[ThePigOnTheWall]

RadioRental the beaches in the Netherlands are spectacular. When the sun shines, it's fabulous!

[purplefairies]

I live in Germany - have done for a while and really enjoy life here (I should add that I don't have DCs yet)

Pros:

1. High salaries and good job security
   
2. Germany has a big middle class so cities here have fewer "really posh areas"/"no-go areas" and more middle-of-the-road, nice, affordable areas.
   
3. Good personal safety levels. Even in a lot of the big cities I've lived in, small children walk to school on their own and it's safe to use public transport even on your own at night.
   
4. Reasonably good summer weather with lots of nice festivals (wine festivals, beer festivals, any excuse really).
   
5. Good public transport network. Even the smallest villages tend to have train stations and it's quite easy to get by without a car if you live in/near a city.
   
6. Nice central location within Europe for reaching other countries.
   

Cons:

1. People can be quite reserved and appear rather "cool" compared to in most UK cities (although this varies vastly from region to region). It takes you a long time to be established as someone's "friend" as opposed to their "acquaintance".
   
2. Linked to the above, people tend not to socialise with work colleagues so it's tricky to meet people, especially if you're new to a city and you're used to a "drinks after work" culture.
   
3. As much as I used to complain about excessive consumer culture in the UK, Germany takes it to the other extreme: no shops open on Sundays/public holidays (also linked to quite a conservative mindset when it comes to women working, especially in the south of the country), unfriendly service when you do shop, no (or very limited) special offers/sales, no real "shopping" culture (which I do miss a bit, to be honest).
   
4. Intellectual snobbery - somewhat linked to the above. A lot of people assume that, if you've been to university, you shouldn't be interested in wearing make-up/fashion/spa days and the like. It should be all museums and highbrow literature. I studied literature myself so I'm not an airhead, but I hate it when colleagues turn up their noses about things that I just consider "fun". In that respect, I think people take themselves a lot too seriously a lot of the time. Education (and very specifically literature, history, the arts) is seen by many to be the be-all-and-end-all, which would worry me a bit if my kids weren't very academic.
   

Interesting to read about the pros and cons of other places.

[RadioRentalMum]

ThePigOnTheWall, thanks, don't know why but I hadn't considered beaches in The Netherlands and always imagine in it to be colder (although perhaps this is because I haven't visited in the summer months), maybe I'll need to go back for a beach holiday.

[ThePigOnTheWall]

My DP is from the Hague and the beaches are gorgeous. And best of all, they build temporary bars and restaurants on the beach in the summer months so you can loll about on giant cushions drinking beer relaxing

[laptopwieldingharpy]

Natation, you are one nasty piece of work. Am very tempted to report you.

[AlpinePony]

Wtf? On what grounds?

[littlemissbroody26]

natation has nothing but informative and helpful!

[littlemissbroody26]

"has been"

[ThePigOnTheWall]

Well she did come down rather hard on one poster and basically backed her into disclosing her income

But I wouldn't go as far as calling her a nasty piece of work although it did make me a bit uncomfortable

[natation]

I didn't ask ANYONE what their income was. I DID ask a general question how much full time child care is in Amsterdam? If someone chooses as a result of that question to disclose indirectly their income by saying they pay 50% in taxes - quick google search brings up the minimum income in Netherlands needed to be in that tax bracket which is what AlpinePony alluded to later, not me! So I might have come across as rude for stating that ?6000 per month net income is in my eyes a rich income - and that's everyone, not just the person who disclosed their income - but I did not ask anyone about their income, I asked about child care costs in Amsterdam and not to anyone in particular! And I will say again I believe I am rich with our monthly net income of 3.5k. But as I also said it's subjective, I'm poor(er) in comparison to someone on 10k per month but rich(er) compared to someone on 2k per month.

[AlpinePony]

Actually I think you'll find it was me who put 2+2 together, not exactly rocket science toots given that she'd already told us which tax group she fell in to.

So I ask again, on what grounds would you have me reported? For having the sense to work out an income bracket by way of tax code? Or, for earning considerably less but stretching my money apparently far further?

[ThePigOnTheWall]

I personally feel a bit uncomfortable about outing someone's income. The fact that you had to google nl tax laws suggests you were on a bit of a mission to prove a point. I didn't especially find it comfortable reading but hey, if you're happy with it there's no need to get quite so high horsey!

[AlpinePony]

Erm, I don't need to Google it, I pay dutch income tax. all I could guess was that she earned upwards of 110k - she chose to divulge the figure.

[natation]

Pigonthewall - please read again, I did NOT say I personally had googled anything, I DID say a google search would bring up the minimum income needed to pay 50% in the Netherlands - and you know what, I AM going to google it now, because I haven't done it yet, just to see if my guess is true and because of your claim that I have done it! I do remember also that there was a current affairs programme on TV recently all about the proposed cut in child benefit in the UK for anyone who is a 40% tax payer - that's anyone earning over £42,475 this tax year - it included a bit about people's perception of who is rich, no-one wanted to say they were rich, whether on 20k , 40k, 100k!!!!