PLEASE HELP, being diddled by a used car dealer! Need advice.

[JamesAndTheGiantBanana]

Short version: Bought a car in october, ongoing problems which they've tried repeatedly to fix but still not resolved. It's going on too long, we've asked for a refund and they're saying they aren't obliged to give one, despite the fact the car is still faulty. Need to know our rights before I ring again, please advise if you can, none of the helplines are open til tomorrow :(


Long version:We bought a second hand car in October, the dealer said it was fine apart from that the engine light was on due to a faulty sensor which he was about to replace.

He didn't get round to it by the time we got back to collect it but he promised to do it the following friday. We took it in friday, they "fixed" it but the light came on again within an hour or two of using it. So we took it in again, and again, and again, four times in total, each time they "fixed" it but the light would come on again shortly after we dove it home.

(There was also a grinding noise from the brakes, and a squeaking noise from the suspension. These appear to have been fixed but also one of the back doors won't open/lock properly - it's just a lot to go wrong within the first month of having the car)

We don't live near this dealer and every time they try to fix the engine light issue they need it for the whole day so it means my partner having the day off work and spending the entire day in the nearest town twiddling his thumbs as it would take too long and cost too much in taxi/bus fare to get home. He's done this four times, hasn't got many holiday hours left to take, and frankly it's very inconvenient. They've even had it overnight once and still the engine light is on.

They say they've now replaced all the sensors and now it's considered an "intermittent fault" and we shouldn't worry about it. Surely if they've replaced all the sensors and the check engine light is still on it's because there's something wrong with the engine? How can a fault be intermittent anyway?

(Bless you if you've read this far, sorry it's a long one!)

Anyway so we've finally got fed up, and said we're not happy. The guy initially said in a warning tone "well really the next step would be a refund!" to which we said "yes, please" and he said he'd have to speak to his boss to see if this was a possibility. We've rung him back today and he's said he isn't legally obliged to give us a refund, and is now saying the car is a part exchange sold to clear with no warranty. There was no mention of it being a part x vehicle when we bought it, and we both heard him say there was a warranty on it.

He said to check our invoice but all we have a deposit slip saying we had paid in full and owed nil - is this effective as an invoice? there's no mention on there of part x, or on the advert on autotrader which thankfully we still have.

Advice would be really appreciated as we can't call trading standards on anything til tomorrow.

Are we entitled to a refund? Thanks.

[JamesAndTheGiantBanana]

Thanks all, I have spoken to him a couple more times, I think my time in dealing with angry folk in call centres has paid off because I would say the situation has de-escalated and he has said he is going to take it to a specialist for diagnosis (and hopefully repairs) It means we won't have the car for a day or two next week but if we can get it fixed once and for all and not go down the official letter/small claims court route we'll be happy. Hope I'm not being too naive. I'll keep you posted!

[fivegomadindorset]

Our dealer just couldnt care less, although sold with a warranty he didn't bother to get one citing age and milage, anyway Trading Standards were very helpful in telling us what we needed to write in the letter and how long we had to give him to reply, we escalated this to small claims, we were offered and accepted mediation, they heard nothing from him and so we go to court in March. Got it fixed by a Land Rover expert as the dealer wanted to have his mate fix it and only offered to pay up to £500. The total was just over £2000.

[prh47bridge]

Any warranty a dealer gives is in addition to your rights under consumer law which are as I set out earlier.

[hollyonthesleigh]

According to ds(mechanic),it needs to go to a Skoda dealer/repairer to be plugged in on their diagnostic equipment to get the correct error code,this would then give the solution to the engine problem.Ds has also mentioned something about the rules regarding warrantys has changed recently,he wasnt quite sure about it but it might be worth asking Consumer Direct what warranty a used car dealer has to give in law.

[SkivingAgain]

Sorry if anyone else has suggested this, I would say that you should phone ConsumerDirect for advice. Good luck.

[PurplePidjInAPearTree]

PurplePidj's other half again.

They (trader) seem to be doing everything to wash their hands of this one. I think you may be better off taking it somewhere else to get it fixed (not the mate they recommend) Then see if they will foot the bill. This seems unlikely from I have read, but then you can go down the legal letter small claims route with the bill of rectification in your hand. They would not want to get involved in that, hardly good for business and should the name of this trader get into the wrong hands...

[SarahBumBarer]

If it has been less than two months since the car was bought and the purchase was made on the basis of the garage fixing the problem (which they have failed to do so) then I would be strongly arguing that the right to reject has not yet been lost (but accept it is a question of what is reasonable).

OP I have had dealings with the small claims track of the county court twice this year (one as claimant, one as respondant). Neither actually went to court as they were settled (to my satisfaction) beforehand. The most relevant concered a fridge freezer which went wrong at 3 months was repaired and went wrong again after 6 months (so beyond the time limit in which prima facie a fault is deemed to have existed at the point of purchase). The retailer offered me half of the value of the freezer in compensation plus £75 compensation for spoiled food. Go get em I say! Filing the claim was simple, no need for legal representation, cost of filing was £30. You may need to use the small claims track anyway in order to try and recover your repair bills if they refuse to pay.

[prh47bridge]

The warranty is largely irrelevant. It does not affect your legal rights.

This was not a trade sale, so what matters is that the vehicle must be of satisfactory quality given its age and mileage, meet any description you were given when you bought it and be fit for purpose. This car is clearly not of satisfactory quality.

Given the elapsed time you have may have lost the right to reject the car. However, you are still entitled to a repair or replacement. If they refuse you can claim the cost of getting it repaired elsewhere, claim a reduction in the purchase price or return the car and get your money back less a deduction for the use you have had.

You do not have to allow him to get the car checked by this other garage. Whether or not he gets an "independent" opinion you are entitled to get your own independent opinion if the dealer continues to insist there is nothing wrong with the car. There clearly is a fault otherwise the engine light would not keep coming on. And, even though the door problem didn't happen until after you bought the car, the dealer may still be liable for that if the underlying fault was already present at the time of purchase.

As you say, phrases such as "sold to clear" and "sold as seen" do not take away your legal rights.

You do not need legal advice or representation for the small claims court. The idea is to save everyone money by encouraging both sides to represent themselves.

[JamesAndTheGiantBanana]

fivegomad, do you have to pay for legal advice/representation with the small claims court? I've never had any kind of experience with legal stuff before, all I do know is we are skint, and we need the cheapest option possible, even if it's not the best option. :(

[JamesAndTheGiantBanana]

Hi, sorry I didn't get back to you earlier, been quite busy the last 24 hours with one thing and another, but thanks very much for taking the time to write your responses, especially pidj's other half!

I called the dealer yesterday and he was quite angry (my dp had argued with him in an earlier phonecall because he was lying about the car having no warranty, I was there when he bought the car and we both heard him say it had a warranty, though we have no paperwork to prove this unfortunately)

He lied again when I spoke to him, he said dp had used some very choice language which had made him furious, but I was in the room when the call was made and although my dp was very annoyed the worst he said was "so you've diddled me basically, well thanks very bloody much I'm putting the phone down now"- so I don't trust what this guy says!

I was very reasonable on the phone so that he could explain the situation to me as he saw it, but I find it hard to stand up to people so he was soon talking to me like I was a stupid child, and it was hard to argue with what he was saying because I don't know much about cars. He is saying they've changed all the sensors so the fact that the light is on now is perfectly fine and it doesn't affect its performance. But I've made a few calls to local garages today for advice and the mechanics have all said "if the engine light is on it's because there's something wrong, somewhere"

I'm not sure about all this car for sale vs trade sale business... they are a registered dealer to the best of my knowledge (although it doesn't say anything to that effect on their website) and we are just ordinary people, not traders. I find it hard to believe that they don't know the sales of goods act if he's been in the business for the 20 odd years he claims he has, this can't be his first complaint! but you may be right. I'm more inclined to think he's pulling a fast one, he said repeatedly he had spent enough on the car and was making a loss etc - I understand his predicament, but at the end of the day we can't be left with a faulty car.

What he wants to do is to call a garage he knows (he checked carefully if we knew of this particular garage before he said anything) and take the car in there to be checked on their diagnostic computer to "prove" that there isn't a problem. I don't trust him and I don't trust the opinion of his mate at the other garage, I would want to take it to an independent place if we were going down that route.

It's a sko da octa via, 04. Brakes and suspension appear to be fixed, the door problem occurred a month down the line of opening it so I don't think they're liable for that, I should imagine we are, and that's ok. It's just the engine light issue we're worried about.

Trading standards/consumer direct have said to go down the official letter route, we are wondering if it might not just be quicker and easier to get the damn thing diagnosed/fixed at another garage and send them the bill (although I doubt they'd pay up) we like the car apart from the issues that are there.

All we have in the way of a receipt is a deposit slip saying that we paid the full amount and nothing was left to pay, signed by us and them. No mention of warranty on there, but also no mention of it being a "part ex, sold to clear" as he said it was anyway. Not that that means anything as they still have to abide by the sales of goods act, they can't abscond any responsibility to the buyer by simply saying "sold as seen" even if they made you sign something to say it was sold as seen.

[PurplePidjInAPearTree]

holly - and MOT only tells you that the car was road worthy on the day it was tested.

Good luck, &five*

(Real pidj here wondering if our advice was any use?)

[fivegomadindorset]

Hello, we are in a similar situation. The car we bought was not fit for purpose and we are going througj small claims court as the dealer is refusing to aclnowledge in Any way that he is at fault.

[hollyonthesleigh]

Does it have a recent MOT,because if it has a door that wont open it shouldnt have passed an MOT,another bit of ammo to hit them with.

[PurplePidjInAPearTree]

Hi there, purplepidj's DP here.

Have a look at this link: www.autotrader.co.uk/advice/2010/09/buying/returning-a-car#rights

I have worked in the motor trade and yes indeed you are entitled to a full refund if the car is not fit for purpose. In all honesty most of those engine management lights are sensor related and with appropriate software on a laptop and a cable, they can be reset. It really is a 5 minute operation with the majority of faults, I am not sure how they need the car in their possesion for a full day.

The salesman and his boss are either pulling a fast one, or they do not actually no the law (most likely option). They are a registered trader/dealer (I assume) and therefore they have to adhere to certain rules and regulations. If the car was purchased as a car for sale and not a "trade sale" then all the talk of returning if not fit for purpose goes out of the window. A "trade sale" is dealer speak for getting rid of part exchange shitters cheaply (usually to another dealer further down the food chain), it is a grey area legally and practically and these cars are unlikely to have any sort of warranty.

As this purchased vehicle has a warranty and we are only going back to October, so it is fairly recent, you are almost certainly entitled to a full refund. What make and model of car is it? Brakes and suspension are serious major components and if there is any sort of fault, they need to be rectified (properly) the non opening door while a less major worry, although it could become a major worry in an incident if someone was unable to get in or out of the car...

It's Sunday afternoon and I don't think anything can be done today, I think you need to get on to your local trading standard as soon as you can. You will need receipts from the dealer, your debit/credit card receipts, V5c, MOT certificate if appropriate when you make the call.

Good luck.

[PurplePidjInAPearTree]

Here goes, am handing laptop to DP...

[PurplePidjInAPearTree]

Good point, naturalbaby - PM me or post the make, model and age (none of that will be enough to identify you, unless it's a McLaren F1 )

[BornSicky]

have you looked here:

Advice Guide Cars

[naturalbaby]

we were in a very similar situation recently, the dealer was over an hour away, the engine warning lights were driving dh insane! he did some research and work himself and found out it was potentially a manufacturing fault. although ours was technically 'fixed' dh was never happy with it (they fixed one cylinder but an intermittent fault kept coming up on another one that they couldn't fix because it wasn't coming up on their diagnostics) dh eventually managed to trade it in at another dealer.
sorry that doesn't answer your refund question.

[JamesAndTheGiantBanana]

Yeah I've asked on there but only had a couple of quick responses so far saying to contact trading standards etc

trouble is I could do with getting it resolved somehow today because you're not supposed to continue using the car once you've decided it needs to be refunded, and my partner has to get to work next week, buses aren't really practical. aaargh I could do without this!

[PurplePidjInAPearTree]

Have you asked on or searched MoneySavingExpert? They usually have the best answers to stuff like this

[JamesAndTheGiantBanana]

Thanks! awaiting his response then :-)

They've offered to replace it with another one on their lot but they just seem so dodgy we're worried that if any problems arise with a new one there'll either be no warranty or we'll have to continue with the same problems of getting there etc

We'd prefer to try for a full refund, or at least a partial one. I just want to be "armed" with knowledge before I call again!

[PurplePidjInAPearTree]

Marking place to ask DP - he's out running, will be back soon (I hope, I'm starving)

He spent time a few years ago trading used cars, so hopefully will be able to help! Ignore me if someone more knowledgeable turns up in the meantime