Searches to Target Ethnic Groups

[Eugenius]

BBC

"We are very sensitive to the effects that that can have and it isn't an attack on particular communities."

I guess they've got to do what they've got to do

[mismatch]

Hold on - I never said that only asian/black people should be searched, obviously anyone acting or looking suspicious on the tube etc should be searched. God - talk about presumptions!!!

[QueenOfQuotes]

But Mistmatch - the police have said they would be tragetting ETHNIC groups - I can't see them rushing to target Asian (chinese, japanese) people - and obviously 'white' isn't considered an ethnic group in the UK - so of course they're going to be targetting black/asians! And that's what the whole point of this thread is about (isn't it?)

[mismatch]

Yes OBVIOUSLY white people would not be searched or as suspect as much as other groups IN LIGHT OF RECENT EVENTS

I'm not saying its RIGHT or PC but it is THE WAY IT IS AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME

These groups will be the main focus of these searches anyone no matter how PC you are trying to be.

[motherinferior]

So do white half-Asians like me get searched or not? Does DP get searched for looking like his Asian dad and I don't because I look like my white dad not my Asian mum? And what about white Muslims?

[Blu]

But Mismatch, this thread is about ethnic/racial targetting...that's what all the discussion has been about!

[QueenOfQuotes]

Would the Shoe Bomber (forget his name) have been searched? Probably not - he looked (for all intents and purposes) white - yet he carried a bomb in his shoe - which he tried to detonate on a plane!

[mismatch]

Yes exactly - but I'm being made to be a monster of some sort for basically backing the police in what they are doing!!!!!!

MI I think you are taking this very personally - sorry if I've offended you though.

[frogs]

To play devil's advocate for a minute: mismatch has a point, tho agree it could have been more elegantly put.

Yes, obviously there are muslims from caucasian backgrounds, and lots of olive/dark-skinned people who are not Muslims (my dh, for one). So in a surveillance situation, anyone of any appearance who is acting in a manner that might arouse suspicion should potentially be checked.

But if we assume that hypothetical future bombers are likely to be youngish muslim men, and if it is reasonable to assume that most UK-based Muslims are not from Anglo-saxon backgrounds, then it follows that it would not make sense to prioritise Caucasian grannies as a search target.

Provided that (and it is a big proviso) that any searching is done in a polite and civilised manner, and that it is not used as an excuse for pulling in people of whatever ethnic background for unrelated reasons, it shouldn't become a problem.

[motherinferior]

No, I'm not taking it personally, actually, I'm taking it politically. I'm not offended; just pointing out why I think a generalised security policy would be a better idea.

[handlemecarefully]

Absolutely frogs

[motherinferior]

Partly because I think that other bombers might well look different from the ones whose appearance has already put people of similar appearance under suspicion

(how's that for a marvel of PC phraseology, eh?)

[handlemecarefully]

What does everybody think about Finsbury Park mosque btw (a bit off at a tangent I realise)

[QueenOfQuotes]

"But if we assume that hypothetical future bombers are likely to be youngish muslim men,"

Of the ones which we know of in the UK

3 were black
5 were asian

Richard Reid - was mixed race - but looked pretty white. What's to say there aren't more like Richard Reid out there. What about women???

[mismatch]

Thats as maybe MI but the police can only act on what has happened so far, surely.

[motherinferior]

Er, no, I thought their job was to try and work out what was likely to happen, not just on the basis of what has happened so far. Myself, I would have thought that it would be a valid assumption that any new bombers might well look very different.

[QueenOfQuotes]

If the police are only acting on what has happened in this country with suicide bombers then I'm worried! We've (thankfully) only had a tiny number of suicide bombers in this country compared to other countries in the world, where they've had suicide bombers of both sexes, and of almost all ethnic background! And I'm sure this is what they're looking at.


Don't forget several women have been held under the antiterrorism act since the bombings..

[mismatch]

I'm quite sure that the police have thought of that MI!!!! Oh goodness this is all getting a bit silly now! I'm off.

[frogs]

I specifically didn't say "from Asian backgrounds" or "of Arabic appearance", or any similar phrase. And of course they could be female. Which is why anyone who is acting in a way that could arouse suspicion should be liable to searching.

I was simply hypothesising why, in terms of overall populations, I can see why a police officer carrying out surveillance at the tube station might be more likely to stop my dh (who is in fact white British, but can pass for Southern European or Arab colour-wise) as he lugs his backpack through the automatic gates than he might be to stop me (pinko-skandiwegian-germano-blond type). I don't suppose my dh would be too thrilled by that, particularly when running late for work, but I'm assuming he would take it on the chin.

[QueenOfQuotes]

but you did say "young muslim men"

Now unless you stop everyone and ask their religon how exactly are they going to know that Mr X, wearing casual clothes and carrying a rucksack is a muslim, Mr X also dressed casually with rucksack is a sikh, and Mr Z - looking just the same is actually a Christian?

[frogs]

Yes, but I said if we assume that most uk-based muslims are not from Anglo-saxon backgrounds, then it follows that young men who are not obviously anglo-british types are going to be more likely to be searched. Which was the point my olive-skinned dh made this morning as he packed his backpack for the tube journey to work.

I clearly wasn't suggesting that everybody whose hair is darker than mid-mouse should be rounded up at gunpoint and strip-searched, while everybody with pale skin and access to a packet of yellow 'Just for Men' should be allowed to pass unhindered.

[QueenOfQuotes]

"Yes, but I said if we assume that most uk-based muslims are not from Anglo-saxon backgrounds"

There are 1.6 million Muslims in the UK. nearly 1 million Sikhs and 300,000 Hindus'. BUT there are only 2 million "Asians" living in the UK (according to 2001 Census statistics). Over 90% of Hindu's and Sikh's came from an "Asian" ethnic group - which means that a lot of UK Muslims aren't Asian!

Which STILL begs the question - how do you know if you're searching a muslim, hindu, christian, sikh or even a pagan!

[monkeytrousers]

Ther terrorist groups will just re-strategise to counter this and anyway, what percentage will actually be terrorists? IMO it's targeting an ethinc minority group unnessicarily as the benefits will be negligible and it will cause tensions.

[frogs]

QoQ, you don't know what religion people are, obviously.

The point is that if searches were carried out in a civilised manner, it should be acceptable, even if not all groups are targetted equally. I guess the problem is that there are large numbers of people from the populations most likely to be search targets who, rightly or wrongly, already feel alienated and picked-on. So they are more likely to cut up rough when confronted by a police officer wanting to search them than, for example, my dh. And in turn the police are more likely to get tough with people who are reluctant to co-operate, thus potentially kicking-off a whole new vicious circle.

Clearly, that is a problem. But conversely, it makes no sense to assume that every individual who passes through a tube station is equally likely to present a risk.