Petition against 'Islamic' terrorism

[monkeytrousers]

Just want to sound this idea out with you good people

Everytime someone in the media mentions the words 'Islam' and 'terrorism' in the same sentence it does nothing but reinforce the idea that the two are inextricably linked. The caveats added after the fact don't do much to redress this imbalance, IMO.

I've never organised a petition before but I think if enough of you were to support it I would like to ask the BBC to do something pro-active in this area. If the BBC can be convinced (a long shot I know but I think it's worth a try) then other media would undoubtedly follow. (they are pack animals )

At the very least we can register our opinion that this will help to unite all creeds in the face of international terrorism and not follow the terriorsts own script when it comes to the corruption of Islam.

Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks.

[monkeytrousers]

Senora, good point about the term 'moderate' Muslims. It has been making me wince everytime I've used it.

Where you at Bloss? Maybe we could all contact our local Muslim communities and ask about a solidarity march. And hope the local and national media cover it. Again I've never organised one so any help from others who have experience would be good.

I'd like to ask any Muslim MN members how they feel about this nameing issue and if the term "Islamist extremist terrorist' would be acceptable to them. I think it's only right that they have the final say.

And whether we succeed or not, thise who agree will have registered their disatisfaction with the way the media are handling this issue, and for once we can attempt to prescribe to them the language we feel is appropriate instead of being force fed crass and meaningless soundbites - like Bush's 'war on terror' for one.

[peacedove]

MT, I think Islamist is also misused. What exactly is Islamist in your view?

Here is more on Jihad, and it is long, but includes verses from the Surah under question. If you read it, you will find a lot of questions answered.

To Mike & His Favorite Verse: Name: Talibulilm 25/4/2002(23:52) GMT

Greetings To All!

I couldn't help but notice that you have been using a Verse to show that Muslims are Violent and Babaric People, I would like to Clear this Mis-Understand and the problem with Mis-Qouting the Qur'an. When You Take a Verse Out, or Half of a Verse, that isn't how you Understand What the
Qur'an Means.

For Example, The Qur'an Says many times: "There is No God, But Allah". What would Happen If I took the First part and Said woow Look at the Muslims, They Don't Believe in God. That is the same situation you are in with the Verse you have been Quoting!

The Chapter in which you qouted from that Verse is A Chapter of Warfare. That is Why The Qur'an is just more than a book, It Guides the Muslims even from when Fighting their Enemy.

You Said The Christians Believe That when someone slaps you should give him your other cheek, But Tell Me, Is it the Same when your Fighting a Battle, When they wound you Do you Ask them to Finish you off? I Don't Think So!

When has permission been given to go to war?

Permission (to fight) is given to those who are being attacked, because they have been wronged. And surely God measures out help for them. - Surah al-Hajj verse 39

And what is with you that you do not fight in the path of God and (in the path) of the oppressed of men and women and children, those who say "Our Sustainer, take us out from this city, its people are wrongdoers, and decree for us a protector, and decree for us a helper". -[ Surah an-Nisa
verse 75 ]

God does not forbid that you do good and make justice for those WHO DON'T FIGHT YOU IN THE RELIGION OR DRIVE YOU OUT OF YOUR HOMES. Indeed, God loves those who do justice. God only forbids your friendship with those who fight you in the religion and drive you out from your homes and back those who drive you out. And who befriends them, such are wrongdoers. -[ Surah al-Mumtahana verses 8-9 ]

-----

When must Muslims seek peace?

Fight in the path of God those who fight you, but do not aggress. Surely God does not love the aggressors. And fight them where you come upon them, and send them out from where they have sent you out, for persecution is a worse thing than fighting. And do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque (in Mecca) unless they fight you there, but if they fight you, then fight them back. That is the reward of the rejectors. Then if they cease, so God is All-Forgiving, Gentle. And fight them until there is no more persecution and the religion is for God. But if they cease, so let
there be no hostility except against wrongdoers. -[ Surah al-Baqarah verses 190-193 ]

And if they incline to peace, so you must incline to it. And trust in God, for He hears and knows all. -[ Surah al-Anfal verse 61 ]

Surely those who have faith and who emigrated and strove with their wealth and their souls in the path of God, and those who sheltered them and helped, such, they are protecting friends of one another. And those who have faith but they did not emigrate, you do not have any duty of protection over them until they emigrate. But if they seek your help in the religion, then it is on you to help them except against a people with whom you have a treaty. And God sees all that you work. -[ Surah al-Anfal verse 72 ]

Do not fight those who join a folk with whom you have a treaty, or they come to you with their breasts constricted against fighting you or fighting their own folk. And if only God had willed, He could have given them an authority
over you so they would have fought you. So if they stand aloof and do not fight you, and they speak a word of peace, then God has not given you a way against them. -[ Surah an-Nisa verse 90 ]

O you, those who have faith, when you go out to fight in the path of God, make things clear and do not say to someone who gives you peace, "You are not a believer," - you coveting the pleasures of the life of the world, and with God is abundant reward. You were the same as that before, then God was gracious to you. So make it clear. Surely God is aware of what you do. -[ Surah an-Nisa verse 94 ]

---
[ ..that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life,
it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind..(5-32) ]

Even in a declared war, certain rules must be followed:

The Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) has given clear instructions about the behaviour of the Muslim army. He observed:

"Set out for Jihad in the name of Allah and for the sake of Allah. Do not lay hands on the old verging on death, on women, children and babes. Do not steal anything from the booty and collect together all that falls to your lot in the battlefield and do good, for Allah loves the virtuous and the pious."

So great is the respect for humanly feelings in Islam that even the wanton destruction of enemy's crops or property is strictly forbidden. The righteous Caliphs followed closely the teachings of Allah and those of His Apostle in letter and spirit the celebrated address which the first Caliph Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) gave to his army while sending her on the expedition to the Syrian borders is permeated with the noble spirit with which the war in Islam is permitted. He said:

"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman. nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire,
especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock. save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"

It is said that once at the time of conquest, a singing girl was brought to al-Muhajir b. Abu Umayya who had been publicly singing satirical poems about Hadrat Abu Bakr. Muhajir got her hand amputated. When the Caliph heard this news, he was shocked and wrote a letter to Muhajir in the
following words:

"I have learnt that you laid hands on a woman who had hurled abuses on me, and, therefore, got her hand amputated. God has not sought vengeance even in the case of polytheism, which is a great crime. He has not permitted mutilation even with regard to manifest infidelity. Try to be considerate and sympathetic in your attitude towards others in future. Never mutilate, because it is a grave offence. God purified Islam and the Muslims from rashness and excessive wrath. You are well aware of the fact that those enemies fell into the hands of the Messenger of Allah
(may peace be upon him) who had been recklessly abusing him; who had turned him out of his home; and who fought against him, but he never permitted their mutilation."

Another letter written by hadrat 'Umar the Second Caliph, which is addressed to Sa'd b. Abu Waqqas, speaks eloquently of the noble spirit with which the Muslims have bear exhorted to take up arms:

"Always search your minds and hearts and stress upon your men the need of perfect integrity and sincerity in the cause of Allah. There should be no material end before them in laying down their lives. but they abould deem it a means whereby they can please their Lord and entitle them. selves to His favour: such a spirit of selflessness should be inculcated in the minds of those who unfortunately lack it. Be firm in the thick of the battle as Allah helps man
according to the perseverance that he shows in the cause of His faith and he would be rewarded in accordance with the spirit of sacrifice which he displays for the sake of the Lord. Be careful that those who have been entrusted to your care receive no harm at your hands and are never deprived of any of their legitimate rights."

A Special Note:

PROHIBITION OF KILLING WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN WAR

Book 019, Number 4319 Sahih Muslim:

It is narrated on the authority of 'Abdullah that a woman was found killed in one of the battles fought by the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him). He disapproved of the killing of women and children.

Book 019, Number 4320:

It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children.

[Aragon]

I've just come back to this thread and am lost.

Surely at when all is said and done any religion should condemn outright the taking of innocent lives. There cannot be any justification for this - can there?

As far as I can see any faith/belief system provides a guide for living ones life and doing so peacefully with regard to others around you.

bloss - I accept what you say but I still don't think it's right to link a peaceful religion with extreme terrorism. These p[eople, as far as I can tell, do not conform to the integral message of Islam - again - if I'm wrong somebody tell me.
Anyway - will look back for answers but will otherwise leave this thread - too complex for me.

[monkeytrousers]

I haven't had time to read your post Peacelove but I will get some time to do so tonight after bb is in bed.

To be honest, what I know of Islam is a thing of shreds and patches, but that is what I know of all other religions, including Christianity too.

I started this thread in the spirit of the 'goldern rule' which is, if you like, my basic moral compass in life : "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

I'd like to take heed of Aragorn's comments at this point. I don't want people to be excluded from the debate.

I'd prefer for the moment just field general views and take nicknames to CAT at some time in the future to sign the petition with their real names.

Also, does anyone following the thread want to help set up a web page perhaps?

[monkeytrousers]

Doh, Sorry! Peacedove...I'm actually not very good at multi-tasking!

[peacedove]

thanks MT, I hope bloss also reads it.

I was looking for a free petition organiser and host. Here is a free hosting site. don't think they will write it for you, though

PetitionOnline.com provides free online hosting of
public petitions for responsible public advocacy

www.petitiononline.com/petition.html

sorry, still cannot post links properly. Someone will have to explain how. I looked at the code in your post providing my link, but when I tried to preview it, it didn't show up as an active link, so I dared not post it for fear of another littering post.

[peacedove]

wow, they do have a "create_petition" page

www.petitiononline.com/create_petition.html

[monkeytrousers]

Thats great Peacedove! You're a star!!

[Papillon]

Bloss lives in Oz - hence she sleeps now

I will respectfilly heed your comments MT, so won´t respond to your piece to me Bloss cept to say I don´t agree

Perhaps we need another thread because there is lots of discussion and debate to be had ?

[monkeytrousers]

Think your right Paps!

[monkeytrousers]

News just in..

The Unite Against Terror site has offered to link our sites when we get set up.

[monkeytrousers]

Peacedove - if this is the site you want to link to

news.bbc.co.uk

you first type \link{

followed by the address above

and then you again type

\whatever you want to appear in hyperlink space}

whatever you want to appear in hyperlink space

I only recently learnt how to do it so I guess it's my turn to pass it on!

[monkeytrousers]

Blu, I've just and the chance to have a look at your 'muslim opposition to terror' thread again and think there are alot of things we could collaborate on, IYSWIM. I think it is a language issue, but I'm beginning to see that it's probably not the way to go to explicitly dictate what terms the media can use or not.

Perhaps if we voice our concern about the lack of coverage given to Muslim outrage at the attacks, as you raise in your thread, coupled with the concern over the use of language, with a hope that the BBC, as a cornerstone of British identity, can lead the way in making an official and public declaration of solidarity with Muslim communities, perhaps solidified with some symbolic action (like the wearing of a ribbon or a banner or pin on screen? we should all have a think).

And thinking about the Irish analogy, it has just occured to me that during the 'troubles' the Catholic church, or specifiaclly the Pope, was not asked to be accountabe for Republican terrorism, nor was the Queen expected or called upon to specifically denounce Nationalist terrorism commited in her name. Isn't this a good example of the double standard at work?

Let me know what you think people.

Thanks.

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[monkeytrousers]

Going to bed now Bloss. G'night!

[saadia]

walaikum al-salaam peacedove, I wasn't sure about the history of how this extremism came about, but as I understood it at one point bin Laden and the US were also in cahoots. There was a lot of Saudi involvement too in Afghanistan. It's all very shady and I admit that my knowledge is patchy so thanks for explaining that.

Also thank you for quoting from the Quraan to clarify the Islamic view of war, I think it was very necessary.

bloss, thanks for clarifying your wording.

[peacedove]

saadia, assalamu aleikum

What happened was that Iran threw out the Shah together with US interests. The US was looking to neutralise revolutionary Iran.

The Soviets invaded Afghanistan, and the Afghans took up arms against them. The US and the Mujahideen cooperated because in the view of many religious scholars, the communists were godless, and in invading and occupying Afghanistan had caused the Afghan population to become refugees. Since the Afghans had taken up resistance, and were unable to expel the Soviets, it was incumbent upon the neighboring Muslims and others to help. Hence the aid and the flow of Mujahideen from all over the world.

In that scenario, the US helped with arms and training. That does not mean anyone who went through their training was a CIA agent.

The break with the Mujahideen came after it became clear that the Soviets will ahve to withdraw. The american think tanks analysed the situation and concluded that US would be the sole superpower left, and must use its clout to corner all resources of the globe, so as to make sure no other power emerges to challenge it. bases on Saudi soil were thought necessary for that purpose.

The Bush-I war on Iraq was engineered to that end.

What the americans did not pay heed to was that it is unlawful for Muslims to have non-Muslims troops on their lands except in very special circumstances, and that too for a short peiod.

That is when bin Laden and the US fell out. That and the contiuous irritant of Israeli intransigence.

bloss, I havent as yet looked at the verse in question, and when I get an explanation I will post it for you, but I do think that my previous post does clarify the issue of Jihad.

[bloss]

Message withdrawn

[monkeytrousers]

We should start a different thread for this as I tend to agree (with Peacedove) but don't want to follow it here.

With regards to the terrorist threat I think we're in new territory and that we, the common hoards, need to challenge the current approach as it only obfuscates and leaves us more ignorant of issues that affect us directly. War costs money but it's also the biggest industry on the planet an it props up economies in the west, our economies.

With regards to this petition, I think what is happening in the world as much a war fought with words as it is fought with military hardware.

The BBC news was interesting this morning as it had a piece on Muslim opposition. We'll see if there's any consistancy with the eports however.

[Papillon]

love it, love it

´we, the common hoards, need to challenge the current approach as it only obfuscates and leaves us more ignorant of issues that affect us directly´

lets get writing the book on it then MT... what shall we call the new thread, or has it started?

[monkeytrousers]

Sorry Dini, My pc has crashed and I haven't reinstalled spell check. My secret is out - I can't spell for toffee!

Behave Paps!!

[monkeytrousers]

Or even spell Dino..

[Papillon]

Well dinosaur can be temporary editor cause my spell check is in german!

Not quite sure we are at editoral stage yet though

So I will start the thread then aye..

[monkeytrousers]

Aye!