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Talk to me about the Gary McKinnon case

81 replies

Bumperslucious · 31/07/2009 20:08

Article here. Chap with Aspergers is to be extradited for hacking into US Government/Military computers. Many people are up in arms about this and I am not sure what the main problem is. Is it:

  1. That he shouldn't be extradited because he has Aspergers?
  2. That he didn't really commit a crime?
  3. That he didn't commit a crime in the US so why extradite him? I wonder if international laws are going to have to adapt to the Internet Age where locations can be remote from the crime.
  4. That apparently the extradition agreement between the US is one sided (I don't know enough about it).
  5. That he was just 'harmlessly' looking for UFO stuff, so intent was not malicious.

    I would appreciate someone explaining the situation to me because as far as I can see the guy hacked in to Government classified files in the US which is illegal. Presumably his Aspergers doesn't mean he cannot understand right and wrong, and the fact that he was just a 'UFO hunter' is neither here or there, he broke the law. I'm not sure what to think?
OP posts:
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muffle · 01/08/2009 16:50

Yes I was being a bit flippant about the bouquet - I know he did do damage. But I reckon they're partly reacting in this heavy-handed way because they're embarrassed. As leaders of the free world they should probably be able to manage a system that can't be hacked so easily, or be able to tell when it is and stop it before allowing that much damage.

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foxinsocks · 01/08/2009 16:51

Sorry, this is a long quote but was just searching for the extradition figures.

This is a quote from Alan Johnson in a Commons Debate. Quite interesting actually. I also didn't realise the Natwest 3 were back here serving their jail sentences.

'It is assumed that the fact that more people have been extradited to the US from the UK than the other way round somehow indicates an imbalance?the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell did not use that in his argument, but the most common argument used against the treaty deals first with reciprocity and secondly with that fact, rather than simply telling us that more people flee the US for the UK than the other way round. It is the case that between 2001 and 2008, about 30 people were extradited to the UK, compared with around 60 being extradited to the US. Since 2007, however, we have extradited more people from the US than vice versa, and many of the people extradited since the 2003 Act came into force have committed serious offences?those are the ?low-profile cases? that I mentioned earlier.

Members of this House may recall the successful extradition from the US of Mark and Sean Gorman, who were wanted in this country for a savage hammer attack that left a man with permanent brain damage. They were apprehended in New York, subsequently extradited and are now serving seven years and five years respectively for their horrific crime. Another low-profile case was that of Calvin Berry, who was extradited from the US and jailed for 10 years for the manslaughter and robbery of a teenage girl. Hon. Members may also be interested to know that since 2004, 10 people have been extradited from the US on suspicion of murder, manslaughter or attempted murder, six have been extradited for sexual offences, including one case of gross indecency with a child, and two have been extradited for kidnap and child abduction. So there is no question of this being one-way traffic.

Let us move on to the high profile cases that the Opposition say are bringing the 2003 Act into disrepute. The motion, for understandable reasons, does not specifically mention which cases those are, but one of them, as we have discussed, must be that of the so-called NatWest three, whose extradition was vigorously opposed by many Opposition Members. That was despite the fact that there was ?reasonable suspicion? of their involvement in a major case of fraud, which, in turn, played a role in the Enron scandal that deprived 21,000 people of their jobs and many more of their pensions and life savings.

I was at the Department of Trade and Industry at the time of the NatWest three marches and protests, so I recall that, as in the other current case to which I assume the motion refers, it was claimed that the NatWest three should be tried on British soil. The High Court was clear on this matter: the case had substantial connections with the United States and could properly be tried there. It was claimed by those campaigning against extradition that the NatWest three would be denied bail and would spend two years in a maximum-security prison?they were, in fact, granted bail and the trial was delayed only at their instigation. When it was
15 July 2009 : Column 333
tried in November 2007, they pleaded guilty to fraud and were each sentenced to 37 months. Following short periods spent in US prisons, they are now serving the remainder of their sentences in the UK. I understand how the public become involved in high-profile cases, but it is difficult to understand how cases are not reported so accurately when they go from being high profile to low profile and how the actual experience of the NatWest three can be left completely out of the argument now raging about Gary McKinnon.'

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ilovemydogandmrobama · 01/08/2009 16:57

It's about whether or not he will get a fair trial. Asperger's of course is relevant. I don't know much about it, but seems to me that he has a very high intelligence, but wasn't able to differentiate between what he was doing and perhaps a computer game.

He didn't profit personally from what he did, and the fact that there was something like a 2-3 year delay in requesting the extradition means that the US don't consider him a security risk, but rather that they want to use him as an example which isn't really about punishing for that crime.

Personally, if I was in charge of US national security, I'd hire him to test the computer systems as he managed to hack into some fairly high security places.

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KIMItheThreadSlayer · 01/08/2009 16:59

I have a child with Aspergers and he knows right from wrong.

Yes this man did wrong BUT sending him to the states for trail is just GB arse licking the yanks again TBH.

He has made them look stupid (not hard to do when you consider that for their password a lot of them had used the word PASSWORD).

By all means take him to court in this country, but to try him under anti terror laws, is stupid, I don't see GB so quick to kick out the Muslim hate preachers to the states... but this guy is white so no one is going to take much notice of him being fed to the kions

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ilovemydogandmrobama · 01/08/2009 17:31

Kimi, I agree with you that he shouldn't be extradited, but don't understand how he could be tried in the UK. Do you mean because he was physically present in the UK despite that the damage happened in the US?

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Snorbs · 01/08/2009 18:18

Incidentally, there is a precedent of a foreign hacker being caught breaking into US military systems and then being tried in their country of origin. Markus Hess had been recruited by the KGB and was trawling through DoD systems looking for information on nuclear weapons(!) and the Strategic Defence Initiative. He was eventually convicted of espionage in a West German court. There is a fantastically geeky book called "The Cuckoo's Egg" by Clifford Stoll that describes how Stoll (a hippy astronomer turned sysadmin) tracked Hess down.

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NotPlayingAnyMore · 01/08/2009 18:23

Those who don't believe Gary McKinnon has Aspergers may wish to read up on the person who diagnosed him - Simon Baron-Cohen - and think on.

I sincerely hope they or their loved ones are never diagnosed with an mostly unseen disability only to be told that they're not believed at the time it does become apparent, which may be when they need help the most.

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edam · 01/08/2009 18:27

ah, but Simon Baron Cohen clearly knows much less about this than Bobbysmum07. After all, he's merely spent a life time studying autism...

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bobbysmum07 · 01/08/2009 23:52

I daresay if I was facing 60 years in an American prison, I could persuade this Simon Baron-Cohen (whoever he is) that I had Aspergers too.

I bet most people could.

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edam · 02/08/2009 00:31

really, Bobbysmum? You reckon you'd fool the Professor of Developmental Psychopathology in the Departments of Psychiatry and Experimental Psychology, Trinity College, Cambridge, and Director of the Autism Research Centre at the University of Cambridge?

Blimey, you should give MI5 a call, I'm sure they could use your superpower of disguise.

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bobbysmum07 · 02/08/2009 01:04

I don't care who he is. If the alternative was 60 years in an American prison, I'd have no problem convincing him that I was a visiting alien from Mars.

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SomeGuy · 02/08/2009 01:29

Indeed, there's a fine line anyway. I can pretty obsessive about things, I don't have Aspergers I think, but I'm not that far off that I couldn't convince somebody. The sort of behaviour that is expected is well documented anyway, say you don't like change, like to follow a routine, can't read people's emotions, etc.

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TAFKAtheUrbanDryad · 02/08/2009 01:30

This is a great thread, thank you Bumper.

I was also very confused over the whole Gark McKinnon thing, and understand the issues a lot better.

Am roffling at Bobbysmum too. "An alien from Mars" - really? I think if you were really facing 60 years in a US prison you'd come across as rather pitiful and would be less likely to diagnose you with a serious medical condition!

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TAFKAtheUrbanDryad · 02/08/2009 01:31

LOLOLOL

Have you two even met a person with severe Asperger's syndrome?

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SomeGuy · 02/08/2009 01:50

Who said McKinnon had severe Asperger's syndrome? It took till he was about to be chucked in Guantanamo for them to work it out.

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NotPlayingAnyMore · 02/08/2009 02:54

"but I'm not that far off that I couldn't convince somebody. The sort of behaviour that is expected is well documented anyway, say you don't like change, like to follow a routine, can't read people's emotions, etc."

  • yeah , somebody maybe. Even the worst of GPs can spot internet diagnoses and hypochondriacs a mile off - neither of you would get anywhere with this guy.


Consultants don't just say "duh - alright, whatever you say". They assess far more than they let on about at the time and not for the reasons you'd necessarily assume either.

"It took till he was about to be chucked in Guantanamo for them to work it out."

"Severe" doesn't = obvious. You seem to have highly misunderstood how complicated that is in this context. It's one of the main reasons there are so many adults genuinely on the autistic spectrum who tend to have to fight for years for a diagnosis as it is.

All this talk of fooling the professionals is bluster. Take some time to really read about autism - it's a very complex but fascinating subject
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stuffitlllama · 02/08/2009 04:41

I think one of the biggest issues is this:

"The objection is with the Extradition Act?s fundamental imbalance. The US does not need to provide prima facie evidence to extradite UK residents; but the reverse does not apply. When on trial in the US, UK residents cannot claim legal aid and have to fund their own defence. And the Home Secretary is not lying when he says he cannot, even on compassionate grounds, insist on a domestic trial."

I have cut and pasted from the Spectator because I don't have a full understanding of the issues: but it's just like the Natwest Three case: there's a feeling that it's all a bit one sided.

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Anniek · 02/08/2009 07:29

Hi

For me the issue here is principle. The USA do not have to provide any evidence to back up their request for a UK citizen to be sent to them!

That is concerning.

Gary Mckinnon admits committing a crime, so he was stupid, I've no knowledge of Aspergers so will not comment on whether this would have caused the crime, but if it was my child I would bloody well want someone to listen, if it might have!

However my fear is we have started down this road, the labour government gave up its citizens to the USA authorities, how long before it is a "USA" crime to insult their president. It might sound like paranoia but power in the wrong hands has and will always be a bad thing, and we are now in a situation were we can and are being judged by the USA! A government we don't and can't vote for!

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JuJusDad · 02/08/2009 07:56

Now there's a thought, Anniek - wouldn't that be rather similar to "taxation without representation".

Only in this case it's far more sinister and I don't think we in the UK could do a war of independance from the US on this matter...

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TAFKAtheUrbanDryad · 02/08/2009 08:59

Ok, ok, take the "severe" out of my sentence:

"Have you ever met anyone with Asperger's syndrome?"

Because I cannot help but think that the only reason someone would be as naive about this extremely serious condition as you are, is because they do not have the slightest idea of what they're talking about!

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TotalChaos · 02/08/2009 09:24

autism spectrum disorders (which include Aspergers) are diagnosed by reference to a triad of impairments (language/social/flexility of thought)- as well as taking into account what a person says about any obsessive interests/social difficulties, the doctor diagnosing would be looking at all sorts of subtle clues as to how that person communicates - tone and delivery of speech, use of language, ability to maintain a reciprocal conversation etc, unusual mannerisms etc. And I'm sure SBC would have taken the pending court proceedings into account

anyone born before 1980 in the UK would be unlikely to have had Aspergers picked up on as they went through the school system.

I don't think he should be extradited as he's not a violent offender, due to the likely devastating effect of being in a US prison, and on the point of principle re:recriprocity.

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GeorgeTheSlitheen · 02/08/2009 09:54

I listened to an interview with one of his ex girlfriends on Wedneday.. either on R2 or 4, i can't remember.

Anyway, She went out with him for 4 years and didn't know he has aspergers.

His diagnosis is convenient.

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LeonieSoSleepy · 02/08/2009 10:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

pagwatch · 02/08/2009 10:27

actually bobbymum may be on to something.

I am sure she would have no problem convincing many people that she has some kind of issue.It affects her ability to comprehend many things which are perfectly obvious to others, she lacks awareness and understanding, has an inability to empathise and cannot deal with overly complicated concepts. Also she has delusions ( that she is some kind of expert in autism).And she seems egotistical in her opinions on a subject which she appears to have no trainning in or experience of.

I think she is diagnosable - assuming
opinionated vindictiveness is part ofthe triad.
Yet. I am sure I would be very convincing.

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NotPlayingAnyMore · 02/08/2009 12:09

Pag!

TotalChaos - great post also

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