Talk to me about the Gary McKinnon case

[Bumperslucious]

Article here. Chap with Aspergers is to be extradited for hacking into US Government/Military computers. Many people are up in arms about this and I am not sure what the main problem is. Is it:

1. That he shouldn't be extradited because he has Aspergers?
   
2. That he didn't really commit a crime?
   
3. That he didn't commit a crime in the US so why extradite him? I wonder if international laws are going to have to adapt to the Internet Age where locations can be remote from the crime.
   
4. That apparently the extradition agreement between the US is one sided (I don't know enough about it).
   
5. That he was just 'harmlessly' looking for UFO stuff, so intent was not malicious.
   
   I would appreciate someone explaining the situation to me because as far as I can see the guy hacked in to Government classified files in the US which is illegal. Presumably his Aspergers doesn't mean he cannot understand right and wrong, and the fact that he was just a 'UFO hunter' is neither here or there, he broke the law. I'm not sure what to think?

[bruffin]

Also this case is local to us and has been in the local papers for years. DH pointed out ages ago if he managed to break into the US computer system, they should be employing him not hounding him!

[bruffin]

"It is my opinion that Gary McKinnon is unlikely to have Aspergers. This is based on the fact that he only discovered he had it once he was caught doing a crime that could land him 60 years in the nick."

I thought he was finally diagnosed because after a television appearance several experts in Autism contacted his family saying that he should look for a diagnosis.

[PeachyTheRiverParrettHarlot]

SMC I do agree that a dx shouldn't cause someone toescape culpability but it should place people in a different system

Consider someone with a psychiatric disorder who kills someone, if they should recover they will be released. Why then would we even think about deporting someone who did no actual harm to a Country that would incarcerate someone with an ASD for the remainder of their life? Massively disproportionate.

If ds1 harms anyone (and in all honesty I would expect that to happen) I expect him to be dealt with, but as a person with ASD and placed into an appropriate environment rather than a prison full of people who chose their lifestyles and criminal actions.

there's a difference between guilt and intention, especially when people with obsessions, lack of empathy and poor understanding of social situations (a big cause for ds1- he feels in mortal danger or threatened by very innocent occurances) are involved.

[luckylady74]

I appreciate your point - I just think the potential punishment should take his condition into account- not that there should be no punishment. I think the extradition order should also take into account his condition. I'll be very interested to hear your points later

[luckylady74]

Thank you ladies - you've made me feel a lot better- 'uninformed fuckers' in particular

[PeachyTheRiverParrettHarlot]

PMSL Pag

[pagwatch]

I agree very much with Aitch
I think we just have to acept that there are a host of interesting and informed views on here.
And then Bobbymum has commented too.

[PeachyTheRiverParrettHarlot]

Nah tis OK Aitch- really have stopped caring PMSl

Or at least have stopped questioning my correctness on these things- becuase I know that I am very well informed on the subject so instantly assumimng anyone knows better than me / assuming defensive tactics is silly and I cannot be arsed any longer.

If someone is an uninformed fucker, I shall call them on it.

And about time too.

SF hugs. And absolutely agree about ASD compulsions. DS3's is computer games related. If we do not physically remove the console he will shit himself, not eat and simply just stay there. It may well be his biggest independence- preventer (after attention span). The significance cannot be underestimated.

[AitchTwoOh]

do a search, peach, and see if bm07 is really the sort of brain that you care about.

tbh i think that extradition and life imprisonment for someone who did understand all the implications of what he was doing and did it anyway is still too much.

[silverfrog]

I've just read through this trying not to be bothered.

I know it is bobbysmum's MO, but it is still worrying that anyone holds those kinds of views.
FWIW, I could see my brother doing exactly this kind of thing.

He is not diagnosed (it wasn't routine when he was a child, but he is definitely on the spectrum. My other brother and I skate a very fine line between NT and AS/HFA. Autism as a whole is rife in my family) and there is little point now in chasing a dx - we know it, he knows it. He has finished with education, and would get little support form SS or any living support He copes, just about, on a daily basis with life, but his views on right/wrong, any moral issuesm, etc are extraordinary. If he committed a crime such as this, i would move heaven an dearth to get him diagnosed (in a "find the money to make it happen" way, rather than a lie to the experts way - lying really would not be necessary!)

Interestingly, my other brother (strong HFA traits, prob also on the spectrum) had a narrow escape involving some computers in the US (similar level of seriousness)

He too was just messing about with computers, not trying to do anyhting in particular - think aliens might have been involved then too .

Anyway, in the course of his browsing around, he found himself in high security areas - the ease with which he got in made him think they were spoof sites set up to look like the real thing, and on he went, tapping away. He was in the grip of a compulsion - he wanted to know something, had the means to find it out, and so on he went.

Luckily for him, he was just about able to recognise that, if what he thought were spoof sites weren't then he would be in serious trouble (I say luckily, because that is all it was down to - luck that eh had a better understanding of the way the world works, and the way other people view right/wrong)

I really cannot believe that people do still say that autis,/AS compulsions are not to be taken seriously. Honestly, if you haven't lived it, please don't comment.

And for bobbysmum to say she reckons she could fake an autism dx - I'd like to see her try. Most people spend years pinning one down (it took me nearly 2 years for dd1, and she is quite severe)

[PeachyTheRiverParrettHarlot]

As for the whole bobbymum thing

I've just had two weeks away being occasionally beaten by my AS ds1, etc

What did i relaise?

Was it that ASD / AS don't exist, I a crap aprent, etc etc?

nah,just that people who can judge on the basis of no understanding are weirdo fuckers whose opinions are not worth being upset by

Fabbo

about time, too

[PeachyTheRiverParrettHarlot]

'Presumably his Aspergers doesn't mean he cannot understand right and wrong,'

yeah it does, so,metimes anyway. Certainly for ds1 it causes massive related issues.

It certainly would impact on understanding of the ramifications, and the penalty is also extremely high (possible life imprisonment) for someone who very probably had a less than fullunderstanding of wjhat they were doing and was drivven by an obsession (with alien landing) rather than any intention of cruelty or harm

Aspergers is often diagnosed late in adults as it didn't exist widely as a diagnosis yearas ago and was only widely startiing to be picked up in the nioneties

People with no sympathy eh?Glad to see ds1's future so well mapped out

[TAFKAtheUrbanDryad]

She is highly entertaining, isn't she Aitch?

Bobbysmum, for example.....

[AitchTwoOh]

do a search, ladies, this is kinda standard procedure for bobbysmum. don't get upset.

[bobbysmum07]

Apologise? For what?

What has your child having autism got to do with Gary McKinnon?

Newsflash: not everything in life is about you and your kid.

It is my opinion that Gary McKinnon is unlikely to have Aspergers. This is based on the fact that he only discovered he had it once he was caught doing a crime that could land him 60 years in the nick.

I don't understand how that offends you personally or how I have slighted your child.

Do you go around looking for reasons to jump on the bandwagon?

[ilovemydogandmrobama]

He didn't really do himself any favors by leaving messages saying, 'I will continue to disrupt...'

[violethill]

Absolutely hormones. It is an incredibly complex condition. That's what really worried me about various media types jumping on the bandwagon and getting involved when they are hardly going to know the intricacies of the case.

The guy in this case may well have severe ASD. This may have impacted on his actions. On the other hand, he may have been aware that he was committing a really serious crime. It also seems that he may have been a regular user of illegal drugs, which would also have impaired his judgement - but which cannot excuse a crime. So all in all, a complicated case.

[Hormonesnomore]

It is entirely possible to be with someone & not know they have Aspergers - my dh was diagnosed with this condition at the age of 55, after 30 years of marriage. Yes, all the signs were there, but he had become so expert at hiding things and trying to appear 'normal' that I only had a sense of unease about our relationship - I knew it wasn't what I wanted it to be - no emotional intimacy, social difficulties, misunderstandings, etc and after years of struggling to understand his behaviour, he was the one who initiated tests as he became increasingly suspicious that he had AS. This condition is so astoundingly complex & affects people to differing degrees. I don't know Gary McKinnon & therefore don't know his level of awareness of his crime.

[luckylady74]

I'm taking the lack of response from previous posters to mean that you accept my points entirely and I'll be expecting an apology very soon

[luckylady74]

This thread had made me angrier than any other thread on mumsnet in all the years I've been on here-yes I am taking it very bloody personally.
It is so hard to get a dx of Aspergers and only the people who live with it all day every day really know what it's like.My ds1's teacher knows him pretty well, but he holds a lot in for when he's at home-as do many with as -so only his immediate family know all the repercussions of this complex condition.
My ds1 has a vague understanding of right from wrong, but the as dictates that he needs to learn every single slightly new situation afresh-including what is the right way to behave in it-he cannot transfer his past experiences to help him with his new ones.
You know what? I could actually imagine my lovely ds1 doing what this man has done in few years time if his academic skills improve dramatically.I hope that'll be able to keep an eye on him and guide him, but he'll be an adult so who knows?
I think Pagwatch said it better than me.
I can't believe you think you could fake it-I know personal attacks are against the rules so all I can say is that your ignorance and arrogance astounds me.

[Judy1234]

The main objection is that the world now really has no faith in US justice given they detain people without trial, engage in extraordinary rendition etc and that under these extradition arrangements (and the new one in the EU) we ship people abroad without looking at whether there is a case here first which I believe to be wrong althoughw e now allow it legally.

We were conned as a nation into accepting some of these changes on terrorism grounds and then they were used for other reasons.

Also the US goes OTT on this stuff so the more we keep our people away from their justice system the better.