Grave Robbing because of Farmed Guinea Pigs!!!

[Twinkie]

Anyone else read about this - god what is the world coming to - this does them no good - actually makes me want to go out and round up a few foxes and have them ripped to shreds and then gas a few of the little rodents - these people are sick and vile and I hope that they get caught and get the life term in prison that desecration is given!!

[KangaMummy]

BBC1 Real Story 7.30pm Tonight

I think they are going to feature this story in next half hour

[donnie]

I have read this thread with interest and have mixed views. I well remember the posters of the LD50 tests showing monkeys with sawn off scalps wires up to electrodes and cats with God knows what horrors being perpetrated upon them - all very 80s. I am not sure how much animal testing has been tightened up since then. To an extent I support animal rights protesters because generally , IMO most people are very accepting and lazy about putting their principles into practice, myself included, and I think Stupidgirl is actually an admirable person in being so passionate and implementing her beliefs in the peaceful way she does.I agree with whoever said that you can judge a nation by the way it treats its animals - and I don't even especially like animals ! She has said categorically she is not endorsing violent behaviour - and maybe ' doorstepping' is a bit intimidatory but she hasn't stolen body parts has she? someone also said there should be more done about the way battery farms are run which is also a good point. 97% of chicken bought and eaten is not free range or organic which means that generally it is pumped full of growth hormones, water and chemicals and that the chicken has been force fed and allowed to die in its own faeces with no room to move about. So I guess if people are happy to eat that shit then we shouldn't expect them to be sympathetic to animal rights protesters! for the record I do not eat non organic meat.....but like I said there aren't many of us who have the bollocks to go out and protest for what we believe in. I haven't marched or demonstrated in over ten years. Give the girl a break.
As for testing drugs on animals, I don't know enough about it but there are ways and ways of doing things.I expect most animal testers are not really concerned with the degree of suffering experienced or they wouldn't be conducting the tests would they ? a doctor with a phobia for blood wouldn't be a good doctor and If I hated speaking in public/in front of people I'd be a crap teacher.

[CarrieG]

OK, this is slightly off-topic perhaps, but my father had a job that was politically rather sensitive when I was growing up & meant that in the event of a major disaster (of a nuclear war type variety...) he'd be off to a bunker whilst mum, bro & I fried - this is mid 80s, 'Threads' type era.

It's only tangentially connected - just that I remember being ABSOLUTELY FURIOUS as a teenager that Dad's job was impinging on my lifestyle (he got called in & harangued when some shadowy Powers That Be got wind that I was involved in Youth CND, for example!). As much for that reason as anything else, I couldn't possibly support giving an entire household grief because ONE member does a job you disapprove of. It DOES affect the rest of the family, & that's just not on.

& whilst I'd like to see an end to all animal experimentation, wouldn't it make a LOT more sense to stick to fighting cosmetic testing & unpleasant agribusiness practices - more animals suffering & more your average Joe Public can do about it, given consumer power - & the fact that increasingly, animal experimenters are turning extremist action against them to their advantage?

I can't help thinking that NO-ONE actually LIKES the idea of torturing little fluffy creatures - but 5 years ago, most of the general public would probably have wanted to see an end to animal testing...whereas silly extremist stunts have merely caused a popular backlash...& I'm sorry to disagree with stupidgirl here but I think doorstepping individuals at home HAS to be seen as intimidation.

[stupidgirl]

Lol, Jools, ok, enough said.

[JoolsToo]

let's just say its absolutely NOTHING to do with biology, medicine OR animals!

[Skate]

Humans do not take part in clinical trials in place of animals - humans don't come into it until way down the line after animal testing has been done and a level of safety has been established.

I would feel very intimidated and frightened if someone was 'doorstepping' me, even if they weren't doing anything, I'm not psychic am I? How would I know what their intention is and with small children upstairs in bed I'd find it terrifying.

BTW, I'm a SAHM and have no involvement whatsoever on either side of this - just find the thread interesting reading and thought I'd post my thoughts.

[stupidgirl]

I'm against injustice, and I think animals suffer terribly. Maybe you rank their rights as below that of humans, I don't agree.

I was born too late for anti slavery/apartheid/womans rights etc. I'm sure there were plenty of people back then who thought that fighting for rights of those individuals was a waste of effort. I just don't see how we can claim to be superior beings when we treat others - human and animal, so badly. Wasn't it Ghandi who said that the progress of a nation can be judged by the way they treat their animals (sorry, very badly quoted).

[stupidgirl]

Out of interest, what do you do Jools? (feel free not to answer).

[JoolsToo]

oh thanks! put me out of job now!

[stupidgirl]

Joolstoo, it's an attempt to make the business unprofitable. And it's a technique that has worked.

Sobernow, I got involved in all this when I was 9. I used to have horses, and learned about live transports. I went vegetarian and started writing lots of letters. And as I grew up and got more and more involved in the cause I realised how utterly pointless letter writing is.

I was involved because I thought it was a way of changing something. I don't see how I could have done the same for humans? It's all very well to sign up to a campaign organisation and send off your subs and feel good for what you're doing, but does it really change anything? (FWIW, I do that too!) I'd rather be actively doing something. I still feel guilty about not being able to be involved any more.

[JoolsToo]

people at my company were targeted recently - another company in our Group in an entirely different part of the country with involved with something the animal rights people didn't think they should (not directly involved in testing by the way)

Their cars had paint stipper poured over them (and their families cars) - they had graffiti daubed on their houses, anonymous phone calls in the middle of the night, letters sent to their children saying their fathers were doing horrible things and neighbours sent letters saying they were paedophiles - remember we weren't even the company doing the work just in the same Group - someone tell me how this is justified?

stupidgirl says she can understand the protestors frustration - frustration against people with no direct involvement? its pathetic!

[stupidgirl]

Janh, yes, I know of ar activists who do medical tests. I've no idea how many do it, but there are certainly some.

Sobernow, I care passionately about human rights too, caring about people and caring about animals are not mutually exclusive.

Moomina, it's not about it just being convenient, it;s about realising that you can't change the past.

[JanH]

I know there are people who vounteer for drugs tests, but are any of them animal liberationists/activists? They have to be tested on living creatures of some kind - surely those who object to testing on animals should be the first to volunteer in their place? I'm not just trying to wind you up - I really want to know.

[moomina]

So principles are only worth upholding if they're convenient?

[stupidgirl]

No, that's just shooting yourself in the foot.

[moomina]

'So, what? You never use it because you were opposed to it being built?'

Ummmm, yes! Isn't that what having principles is supposed to be about?

[stupidgirl]

So,sobernow, anyone who is involved in fighting for the rights of another species is either misguided or mindless????

[stupidgirl]

Incidently if I back out of this thread (or MN generally) rather abruptly I'm not flouncing (honest). Just having severe probs with pc crashing every few minutes.

[stupidgirl]

Janh, actually there are people who volunteer for medical tests, for just this reason. There are alternatives to animal tests.

TBH, I disagree that her stance makes her a hypocrite. This same argument was used when there was the whole thing about the Newbury Bypass (remember that? that was another one of my 'causes') and after the bypass was built there was an article in the paper saying "A protester used the road, ha, they're frauds, hypocrites, sell outs" etc. So, what? You never use it because you were opposed to it being built?

So, what, she dies because she doesn't agree with how it was tested? IMO, better that she lives to campaign for a change.

[JanH]

She says, effectively, "it was not right to test these drugs on animals, and it will not be right to test them on animals in the future, but in the meantime I will take advantage of the existence of these drugs which have been tested on animals."

??? Actually it does sound pretty hypocritical to me, sg, unless she is putting herself forward as a human guineapig to test drugs for future use - do many/any animal activists volunteer to do this? They do have to be tested somehow, don't they?