Ukraine - WWIII?

[TerrierandJune96]

Whilst we're marking the anniversary of the start of WW1, world politicians seem to be intent on starting WWIII. Should be be worried?

This satirical, but painfully plausible, piece suggests that the lessons of history still have to be learnt.
eveningharold.com/2014/03/25/sanctions-on-himmler-and-goebbels-fail-deter-hitler-from-occupation-of-poland/

[PigletJohn]

and yet you flood your references to Ukraine with references to Nazism.


You say the government of your country (whichever it is) "our government allied themselves with people who worship Bandera Nazis

[Hopefulgoat]

Piglet, this is rubbish. You are the only one who thinks that Ukrainian people and Neo Nazi are the same thing. I certainly don't.

I don't understand what Svoboda party is doing in Ukrainian government and why a corupt charlatan like Timoshenko was a PM. You are the one finding it all right.

[PigletJohn]

would you like to count the number of times you use the words "nazi" in conjunction with Ukraine?

You like to drag up stories from the past. How do you feel about atrocities committed, in the same time frame, by the Russian-dominated Soviet Union?

Do you think that the atrocities committed in Ukraine may have won many friends?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_famine

Or in the Baltic states?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_of_Genocide_Victims

Or in Poland?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Forest_Massacre

Or among Jews?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia#Stalinist_antisemitic_campaigns

Ex-communist Putin is a retired KGB man. Their reputation is worse than the Gestapo.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB_victim_memorials

[Hopefulgoat]

would you like to count the number of times you use the words "nazi" in conjunction with Ukraine
Many times indeed in conjunction with the Neo Nazi Svoboda, Right Sector parties and the whole russo-phobic rhetoric of nationalists in the current 'interim government. I don't think they represent the people of Ukraine (at least I hope they represent a minority).

You like to drag up stories from the past.

I don't drag them, the Neo Nazi do by stirring and exploiting grievances from the times of the Russian Empire and Stalin's dictatorship. The whole Nationalistic rhetoric is about fighting the grievances of the past.

German Nazis inflicted a lot of suffering on people in all of the EU member state countries. However we do not lay that now at the feet of German people. There is no anti German rhetoric and politicians don't score political points by exploiting anti-German grievances. EU is about peaceful collaboration with your neighbors.

Stalin was a psychopathic tyrant who committed genocidal social policies. All of his policies had mass casualties amongst all people of the Soviet Union. The famine of 1932-33 was caused by forced collectivisation and affected all the agricultural regions of USSR including south of Russia and the regions along Volga river, as well as North Caucasus. Russians , Ukrainians and people in Siberia and North caucasus suffered from it.

The whole point is that Stalin was a non democratic dictator. Russian people didn't give him the mandate to do those things and cannot be blamed for his crimes. Such collective punishment would be a mark of fascism.

It is you, Piglet that insists on Russian-dominated Soviet Union.
You are the one who is not phased by the antics of Svoboda and Right Sector MPs and Timoshenko's rhetoric.

Instead of engaging with the argument on this thread, you attack the messenger.

Indeed you are doing a good job of showcasing the values and political culture of part of Ukraine. I hope it's a very marginal part.

[PigletJohn]

nonsense

To say you do not rake up stories from the past is simply untrue.

you plague this thread by raking up your stories from 70 years ago, and you constantly link the words "Ukraine" and "Nazi"

However you generously and forgivingly say that the Russian people cannot be blamed for the past.

[claig]

Wow!

Did you hear Farage's statement on Ukraine in the debate with Clegg?

Clegg gave his usual flannel, but Farage showed real integrity and principle and was spot on.

I will have to wait to get the quote and will post it then.

But a small part of what he said was something like Europe has blood on its hands over Ukraine and they gave false hope to the people there who then toppled their government.

Excellent stuff.

[claig]

Adam Boulton and the panel are discussing the statement "the European Union has blood on its hands" now.

They are surprised and a bit shocked at the strength of that statement.
They are not used to politicians telling the truth, they are used to hearing flannel. But Farage is different class.

[Hopefulgoat]

Nazi worshiping and exclusion of ethnic Russians from democracy is very much in the present as described in this BBC article.

The memorial event actually refers to the annual march in Riga honouring Latvian Nazi SS!

The BBC timidly acknowledges that 13% of ethnic Russians, including those born in Latvia before independence, do not have the right to vote and are classed as "non-citizens". Although Russians in total account for 42% of population, they are not represented in government.

"According to Latvian pollster SKDS, Russian-speakers make up 42% of the population in Latvia, with 58% described as ethnic Latvian.

This split in society is exacerbated by the political system.

The parties popular with ethnic Latvian voters manage to form convoluted governing coalitions to stay in power. Meanwhile Harmony Centre, a party voted for mainly by Russians-speakers, is stuck in opposition - despite having won more votes than any other single party in the last parliamentary elections of 2011. because Latvian nationalist make coalitions to excude them."

" 13% of Latvia's population, are so-called "non-citizens". And they live in an EU member state and member of Nato."

"Russian-speakers often live very separate lives from their Latvian neighbours, living in different neighbourhoods, often socialising in different places.

In Riga city centre, one bar might be full of local Russian-speakers, next door packed with ethnic Latvians."

For me this is not a picture of an enlightened European democracy, but of a racial segregation of worse kind.

This is relevant to Ukraine, because people in Eastern Ukraine and generally Russian speaking Ukrainians see this as a blue print to their future in the 'new' Ukraine.

The current interim government doesn't include any representative from the East or an ethnic Russian and their first move was to outlaw the Russian language.

[PigletJohn]

So perhaps the next country to experience a Russian military invasion will be Latvia.

Or will it perhaps be Moldova? or Estonia? Or would you put your money on Kazakhstan, though it is rather large? Maybe the next step will be to seize some more of Ukraine.

Which do you think will be the next country to be invaded by Russia?

[claig]

Farage quote from the debate with Clegg. Some pundits are already asking if Farage will regret this statement. They don't understand the public. They think we want flannel.

"We should hang our heads in shame. The British government has actually geed up the European Union to pursue effectively an imperialist, expansionist - and even Mr Barroso the Commission President once himself said you know that we are building an empire. We have given a false series of hopes to a group of people in the Western Ukraine and so geed up were they that they actually toppled their own elected leader. That provoked Mr Putin and I think the European Union frankly does have blood on its hands in the Ukraine and I don't want a European army, navy, air force or a European foreign policy. It has not been a thing for good in the Ukraine."

[Hopefulgoat]

My money is on USA bombing Syria and Iran.

The rumor is out that is what the Saudi will ask in exchange for lowering petrol prices. The Guardian If the west wants to hurt Putin, could Saudi Arabia do its dirty work?

The Iran scenario mentioned up thread has more to it than meets the eye.

[Hopefulgoat]

Farage saying "I don't want a European army, navy, air force or a European foreign policy. It has not been a thing for good in the Ukraine."

We urgently need a European foreign policy so we are not hostages of manipulation by histerical racist war mongers.

[claig]

EU foreign policy is influenced by US foreign policy.

The US wants us in the EU.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/obama-administration-warns-britain-to-stay-in-the-european-union-8444789.html

EU foreign policy is set by the strongest countries in the EU and there is little that the weaker and poorer countries can do about it. They have to go along.

UK foreign policy is greatly influenced by US foreign policy and so is EU foreign policy.

The public in EU countries is often against the coordinated EU foreign policy which has been determined by the powerful. But it is the bankers and technocrats who are consulted, not the public.

Farage is saying that the UK should make its own foreign policy decisions in its own interests and not be forced to go with the flow of a coordinated European foreign policy. And that is why he won't be allowed anywhere near power in the end.

[claig]

However, I am beginning to think that the EU will fall apart, against the wishes of the powerful. The more they overreach and "build an empire", the more the public will vote for parties such as UKIP who are against this.

[Hopefulgoat]

The case of Ukraine has just shown that the EU is incapable to uphold its foreign policy and are 'f##ked' in so many ways.

[PigletJohn]

The case of Ukraine has shown that Russia is unable to leave its past behind and continues to expand its borders by military invasion and occupation.

[DeniseGarrison]

Zombie Outbreak in Ukraine

i.imgur.com/DiIJYB6.jpg

The miraculous 'resurrection' of Arkady Babchenko raised many questions related to the activities of Ukrainian special services. Even various conspiracy theories began to appear.

Some people recalled the murder of former Russian deputy D. Voronenkov in 2017 as certain circumstances suggested that it had been staged. So anyway, that seems to be true. However, see for yourself.

This is what Igor, a fellow student of Denis Voronenkov at the Military University, who quitted the military service and became a businessman in the mid-90s, told anonymously, without disclosing his surname. Although their lives took different paths, sometimes they met at the events organized by the University graduates.

When Voronenkov entered politics, he stopped seeing his University mates. They only exchanged calls occasionally until the tragic news of Voronenkov's death that arrived in March 2017 from Kiev.

But a year later, in April, 2018, in Lviv, Igor accidentally ran across ... Denis Voronenkov. At first, Denis lost courage, but then he kind of rejoiced at seeing his old friend. However he immediately told Igor that he had a different name and surname now. He had a facelift and grew a moustache. Igor was short of time as he was in a hurry to come for a business lunch with his partners. He tried to give Voronenkov his mobile phone number, but Denis refused to take it, saying that he would not call him anyway.

'And do not even try to tell anybody about meeting me. As a minimum, you make yourself just ludicrous, or more than likely they call you crazy', with a giggle said ex-Denis to him in the end. 'Besides, it is not safe for you...'