Personhood laws for foetuses - risks for all women of child-bearing age

[DebrisSlide]

I can't say much about this in text because I am frothing beyond coherence, but given the muted response in FWR, I thought I'd see what the wider MN community thought about this not a DM article

Rational response (imho) here

[horsetowater]

“When a pregnant woman drinks, the alcohol goes across the placenta to the foetus via the bloodstream,” says Dr Raja Mukherjee who works for Surrey and Borders Partnership NHS Foundation Trust. “The foetus’ liver isn’t fully formed, so it cannot metabolise the alcohol quickly enough.” At this stage, the baby has a high blood alcohol concentration. It therefore lacks oxygen and the nutrients needed for its brain and organs to grow properly. “White matter in the brain, which is responsible for speeding up the processing of information, is sensitive to alcohol,” says Dr Mukherjee. “So when a mother drinks, it affects the development of her baby’s white matter.” From Drinkaware.co.uk

Cote D'Azur think this through. Would you deny your baby oxygen? That's what happens when you drink alcohol.

[CouthyMow]

What about a woman that knowingly puts her child at risk through prescription medicines? If the choice is extreme pain or no children? Where does it stop, trip?

I know the devastating effects FAS can have, and I'm the child of an alcoholic mother, who thankfully didn't give me FAS (through sheer fucking LUCK), but I still don't believe that criminalising the WOMEN involved is the issue - criminalise the ALCOHOL before you criminalise the woman IMO.

But that won't happen, because MEN of childbearing age see it as better to criminalise a woman for drinking when she might be pregnant than for THEM to have to go without alcohol for a large portion of their life as well.

I'm NOT espousing that it's in any way a good idea for a woman to drink heavily whilst pregnant, far from it, but either alcohol is legal and we have to deal with the effects of that, one of which is FAS, OR alcohol is illegal for ALL.

[CouthyMow]

As alcohol is that dangerous, then it should be banned. Wouldn't bother me, I only have 3/4 alcoholic drinks a year anyway. So it should either be so dangerous that it should be banned, full stop, for everyone, and criminalised for ALL, or we have to accept that a side effect if the legality of alcohol is that there will be cases of FAS.

[CouthyMow]

There just should NOT be any difference between choices surrounding alcohol for men and women.

[OrangeFizz99]

Where do antidepressants fit on this scale?

I have to take 75mg of aspirin a day in pg - something normally advised against. Am I and my consultant to be punished?

[OrangeFizz99]

Exactly cow - same rule for both sexes or not at all. Alcohol does have an effect on spern quality and will have an effect on a MAN's ability to parent effectively too.

[TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge]

No I am not anti abortion.That is different but I shouldn't expect this place to have people not ranting on about everything else.

Medication is also completely different.When on medication the best for an expectant mother is given.

Drinking (normally heavily) during pregnancy is an entirely selfish act that is not born of need.It is wrong,to put it mildly.

[ChunkyPickle]

I'm not sure that I take the opinion of a doctor who advocated smoking cigarettes or cannabis when pregnant as preferable to drinking alcohol..

Multiple studies have shown no issue with light to moderate drinking during pregnancy (in fact one population study researching the impact of certain genes has suggested that light alcohol usage actually resulted in higher IQ in the children).

Multiple studies have shown smoking during pregnancy to result in low birth weight (and it also restricts oxygen), and low birth weight is associated with all sorts of greater risks for children.

It's irrelevant though. Body autonomy says that I get to choose what I do, and I don't have to choose based on whether I might be pregnant. I get to choose to drink when pregnant, to take long journeys in the car, to eat cheese, steak, sushi, to swim in rivers, have hot baths - just like every other human being.

[TripTrapTripTrapOverTheBridge]

Oh ffs,the 'same should apply to men' mentality in this place really fucks me off.Shame you don't see things as equal when a woman screws up.'I hit my husband'...'oh no,you poor thing,what did he do to provoke you'

[OrangeFizz99]

Drinking (normally heavily) though is open to massive interpretation. For someone who drinks on e a year when not pg the fact I had a few glasses of wine during pg could seem like drinking heavily.

Escalation once passing law on pg women is inevitable.

Abortion is a salient point - if you believe a foetus has a right to not have alcohol passed into its blood stream surely believing it has the right to live is not exactly a million miles away?

[ChunkyPickle]

TripTrap - I disagree - if you're heavily drinking during pregnancy then you have a problem (just as if you are a heavy drinker and not pregnant), the problem needs to be treated, not criminalized.

I also disagree that drinking during pregnancy is normally heavy - everyone I knew was perfectly capable of sticking to a single drink.

[pointythings]

Actually TripTrap if you were a regular reader of the relationship board you would know that no-one on there minimises a female poster physically abusing her DP/DH. That argument comes from ignorance, I'm afraid.

[OrangeFizz99]

trip - chauvinist women make my eyes roll back into my head. My mum is one, totally infuriating.

[ChunkyPickle]

Not only that, but surely that argument supports the position here - ie. women and men should both be condemned for violence, women and men should both be banned from alcohol (or my preference, left to decide for themselves)

[PoorOldCat]

One of the issues might be that alcohol and its use is so prevalent in this society.

It's really unusual not to drink it. Very unusual and normally stating such a preference is met with incredulity, jokes, etc

I think if we are going to punish people for drinking while pregnant (possibly unknowingly) then we really need to look at the alcohol laws in general, and on a much bigger level, the way drinking is accepted or not within our culture.

I think there's a far bigger problem out there regarding alcohol than just whether pregnant women drink or not. And it isn't equitable to bring this all down on them when society almost requires an alcohol intake.

[Trinpy]

I thought that too Chunky (about the pediatrician). I wonder how he came to that conclusion - I've certainly never heard of any reliable evidence that supports his opinion.

I don't think this idea of prosecuting women who drink heavily will ever really happen. The more you think about it the more ridiculous it sounds. If someone is so addicted to alcohol that they are harming their unborn child, I doubt the threat of prosecution is going to stop them. If anything it's just going to make them more determined to hide their addiction, which could result in an even riskier situation for the baby (and the mother). For the amount of money it would cost to enforce all this you could have put in place a better system which deals with the issues that have led to these women becoming so reliant on alcohol and helps them to quit.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Trip I'm also saying 'same should apply to men' and I am a man. Equality is important because it is right, but also because once you start allowing exceptions then you could be next to be deemed slightly less equal.

[CoteDAzur]

"Cote D'Azur think this through. Would you deny your baby oxygen? That's what happens when you drink alcohol."

All the funny ones are out tonight

Do you even comprehend what would actually happen if a fetus' brain was "denied" oxygen?

I had the occasional champagne or half a glass of wine, not to mention a coffee pretty much every day when pregnant with DS. It must be because his brain was deprived of oxygen in the womb that he must be trilingual at the age of 4.

Thankfully, it is the easily excitable among us who make laws in the Western world.

[horsetowater]

Cote d'Azur - You really think this is funny?

“The foetus’ liver isn’t fully formed, so it cannot metabolise the alcohol quickly enough.” At this stage, the baby has a high blood alcohol concentration. It therefore lacks oxygen and the nutrients needed for its brain and organs to grow properly.

[CoteDAzur]

The hysteria is quite funny, yes.

Banging on about it isn't making it less funny. Though, it's making it kind of sad at the same time.

Do you know what would happen if a fetus was actually deprived of oxygen? Look up intrauterine hypoxia for enlightenment.

Funny enough, alcohol isn't listed as one of its reasons. Smoking is, though.

[SolidGoldBrass]

When I was about 8 weeks pregnant with DS, I got so blitzed on gin and red wine that I fell off my friend's patio decking and had the most magnificent set of bruises all down one side.

DS was not only born alive and well but is now on the Gifted and Talented list at school.

[horsetowater]

No Cote, teratogenic substances really are not funny. They have ruined my daughter's life and the life of many many people I know. Now get back to your Champagne smugness with your genius child.

[horsetowater]

You too SGB, get back to your decking and wine. Funny story, really hillarious.

[SolidGoldBrass]

My point is: there is clearly no direct, inevitable,causal link between drinking alcohol and damage to a foetus. It's just not that simple. Which is why the idea of banning women of childbearing age from living autonymous lives and making their own choices is wrong.

[horsetowater]

The same of course would apply to smoking anyway if it did become law. So not only an alcohol related issue. There are always exceptions, nobody knows why not every child ends up with the same amount of damage but it doesn't mean the research isn't accurate. There are many many children suffering from the use of teratogenic substances, whether prescribed or otherwise.

I shall let you off my wrath this time as I made a bad taste joke earlier on and so I feel I'm being hypocritical and a bit sulky. :)