sexual segregation in UK universities

[carlajean]

I don't know if i've missed any threads on this, but i'm horrified to have just learnt that some UK universities are going to allow sexual segregation in some lectures. Yasmin Alibhai-Brown commented on it in today's Independent, and Polly Toynbee wrote about it in the Guardian.
Why hasn 't the NUS objected?
I'd be interested to hear what other mnetters think about this. As i've said, I object strongly to this, but would be interested to hear what others think.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

No group should have special status. Not Homosexuals and not Women, not Christians, Muslims or Sikhs.

When we say for example that a gay person should be able to book a room in a B&B that's not because gay people are more important than Christians, but because everyone should be able to book a room in a B&B. I don't want them treated better, I want them treated the same as everyone else.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Exactly, BOB. In those cases, the gay couple weren't asking for special status, merely the same treatment. In the current case, women aren't asking for special treatment - on the contrary! These disputes arise when religious people think that they have a right to impose their moralities (the details of which vary between co-religionists and over time so surely deserve that tag of 'temporary') and strictures on other people simply for what those people are. They are the ones who seem to think they have a 'special status' which allows them to ignore other peoples right to equality.


I sincerely hope that the concept of sexual equality isn't a 'temporary morality' any more than racial equality is - it may have taken humankind a long time to arrive at it but now it's here, can anyone seriously think it's going away?

[flatpackhamster]

ErrolTheDragon

Exactly, BOB. In those cases, the gay couple weren't asking for special status, merely the same treatment. In the current case, women aren't asking for special treatment - on the contrary! These disputes arise when religious people think that they have a right to impose their moralities (the details of which vary between co-religionists and over time so surely deserve that tag of 'temporary') and strictures on other people simply for what those people are. They are the ones who seem to think they have a 'special status' which allows them to ignore other peoples right to equality.

What was happening was that the religious people's freedom of conscience was denied. You and many others no doubt approve of that because of your political and social leanings. Others would disagree with that. I've no time for any religion but I don't like to see people bullied by the state in to 'accepting' societal behaviours they believe are wrong.

I sincerely hope that the concept of sexual equality isn't a 'temporary morality' any more than racial equality is - it may have taken humankind a long time to arrive at it but now it's here, can anyone seriously think it's going away?

It depends on a large number of factors. But it may go away. Look at the social changes in the 18th and 19th century. Victorian society was a reaction against the free-living licentiousness of the Georgian era. Could anyone living in 1810 have imagined that half a century later society would have changed so much? The same goes for people living in the 1940s and then looking at life in the 1970s. So who knows? I think you make a mistake if you imagine society will stay as it has. I suspect we aren't far off from a major tightening in moral codes as we swing away from the 'anything goes' culture of the last few decades.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

What was happening was that the religious people's freedom of conscience was denied.

That's actually not the case.

What the B&B owners lost was not the right to obey their god, but the right to provide a service to some and not others.

If they had a dilemma because their religion required them to discriminate against other people when providing a service then they had the last ditch option of not providing a service at all.

This would satisfy their belief while not breaking any laws.

Their freedom of conscience would only be denied if they were forced to continue to provide a service, but to everyone equally.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Exactly, BOB.

Flatpack, we're talking about equality here. The right to rent a room the same as anyone else ; the right to sit in whatever part of a lecture theatre with whoever you choose.

'I don't like to see people bullied by the state in to 'accepting' societal behaviours they believe are wrong.' . Me neither (you make some odd inferences, incidentally) - but I like even less people being discriminated against for what they are.

[flatpackhamster]

ErrolTheDragon

Flatpack, we're talking about equality here. The right to rent a room the same as anyone else ; the right to sit in whatever part of a lecture theatre with whoever you choose.

What we're talking about is whose rights trump whose.

[ErrolTheDragon]

You seemed to have wandered off onto something quite different with the stuff about 'licentious behaviour' and 'anything goes'.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Flatpack is this what you are praying for ?

Shop owners in London told they face 40 lashes if they continue selling 'evil' alcohol

[flatpackhamster]

I don't understand the reference to praying. What do you mean?

[alemci]

the women in the burka looked very intimidating.

I think Choudary could do with a reallity check - could someone tell him this isn't Saudi Arabia.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Flatpack you somehow got onto "a major tightening in moral codes" and that's what Citizen Smith Choudary wants too.

You are still talking about islamic rights trumping others so not sure what else to say to you.

[alemci]

Do you mean Wolfy or Foxy :)

Power to the people

[BackOnlyBriefly]

That's the one :) wasn't sure anyone would remember him.

[flatpackhamster]

BackOnlyBriefly

Flatpack you somehow got onto "a major tightening in moral codes" and that's what Citizen Smith Choudary wants too.

You are still talking about islamic rights trumping others so not sure what else to say to you.

If you're asking me 'Does a rapid rise in the number of Muslims in the UK mean that there will be pressure on moral codes to bring them more in to line with the Koran', then the answer is 'probably yes'.

Here's a possibility you may not have considered - an Islamic political party in the UK. They would campaign for Sharia to be imposed. They wouldn't need many seats in Parliament to be a strong political force. We could be in a position where we have a hung parliament, and a Labour/Islamic party coalition holds the balance of power in government. Consider what price that party would exact for their support for the government.

But it isn't just from that quarter. The Baby Boomers are now in their sixties and seventies. That generation weighs heavily upon our culture, because it was them that tossed out the old order in the sixties and them that have defined social mores. Are they likely to continue accepting ever more liberal social mores? Unlikely.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Well I guess I am a Baby Boomer so I don't feel too worried on that score.

And the social changes I would be concerned with - the one we're dealing with here - would be rules that if a muslim is in the room then he gets to decide what is right and wrong for everyone. and I don't think that will happen.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Flatpack - again - this discussion is about equality, not 'liberal social mores'.

FWIW I really can't see a Labour/Islamist (not 'Islamic', note - Islamist - big difference!) coalition, and certainly not one which in any way reversed the moves towards equality thus far achieved by women and gay people. Women and gays have the vote too you know.

[flatpackhamster]

ErrolTheDragon

Flatpack - again - this discussion is about equality, not 'liberal social mores'.

Far be it from me to distract you all from agreeing with each other. I'll leave you in peace to pretend that equality is everyone doing what you think is right.

[alemci]

showing my age I'm afraid. remember Hilda Braid who went on play Nana Moon in it.

unfortunately Choudary seems to lack any humour and I liken their behaviour to 16th century England, Cromwell not allowing theatre and spying on people who had any fun.

I know it's slightly off topic

[alemci]

you're frightening me Flat pack but I think this may happen. look at recent history, a ' civilised' country in Europe not so long ago and a minority party.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Far be it from me to distract you all from agreeing with each other. I'll leave you in peace to pretend that equality is everyone doing what you think is right

OK, feel free to keep on pretending that is what everyone else is doing here.

[Mary2010xx]

I believe in a generation or two the radical muslim young will be nicely influenced by Western values and change.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

oh yes I remember Hilda Braid. She was good in it.

Mary, I hope you are right. Certainly when people like Choudary or those idiots in Tower Hamlets try to stir up trouble we get Muslims saying that they don't want any of this crap. They just want to get through the day like everyone else.

[ErrolTheDragon]

BOB - yes, and of course those vigilantes were targeting Muslim-owned businesses. If Sharia law started to be allowed, it would be aimed at muslims first.

But of course, the scaremongers forget that people who try to impose their own ideas of law will be brought to book by the actual law of the land - a so-called Muslim Patrol have recently been jailed.

[Jux]

Sense will prevail. When I read or hear people like Choudury and Flatpack, then I want to ban religion completely. Of course, I don't actually advocate doing that, because I'm a baby boomer and a woolly liberal.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Do you not ever wonder why the thoughts and opinions of Anjem Choudary are so easy to read and why he is invited on tv so much? The man is widely despised in the Muslim community and is the definition of a fringe figure, yet he gets more publicity then any other Muslim man in Britain.

The equivalent would be claiming the head of the EDL represents all white, British, working class men and giving him airtime in accordance with that.