What on EARTH happened in Kenya :-(??

[PacificDogwood]

Save us all from fanatics .

I am quite fanatically against extremists of all colours/faiths/nationalities.

What can go on in their heads when they plan an attack like this? Are they hoping to win support? Do they truly believe that atrocious acts like this wins a place in paradise?? Really?

I despair sometimes .

[duchesse]

FGS Silver, lay off! There are millions of honest, upright, law-abiding, peace-loving, gentle Muslims going about their daily life every single day of the week eating, drinking, going to school and work, to the shops, visiting elderly parents, just like anybody else. All they want is what most people want- a peaceful life. These are a few dozen nutters who do not in any way represent their "fellow" muslims- do you feel you need to reject in the name of Christianity the atrocities committed by Christians through the ages- have you apologised for the Crusades recently?

Just because a bunch of bigoted people believes something doesn't mean it's a reasonable thing to believe. You may have the safety of numbers but you are trading in independent rational thought to gain a ready-made belief.

[Worriedformyfriend]

Gosh, a very good school friend of mine, Dan Eldon, was killed in Somalia nearly 20 years ago. I was, and remain, very well versed in the area, the conflicts and the people. Piracy may be one income stream.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Worried - there will be lots of income streams for all sorts of dubious reasons and purposes. But the point remains that the Kenyan attack will not have required much money at all, the main thing is manpower, which a place like Somalia has a great deal of. That is what is so disturbing.

[PacificDogwood]

Right.
Well, I apologise for my nomenclature not being quite clear (and yes, I am aware that the mention of the Catholic church's role in the Third Reich was at best tenous).
This is NOT a Muslim/Islam bashing thread, nor am I having a go at any other religion.

I am fully aware that none of the terror attacks, going back as far as 9/11, are simply explained. Neither by religious affiliation, nor by pure political goals. It is of course much more messy than that.
Added factors, to name but a few and in no particular order, are: tribal associations, past confrontations or perceived wrongs, financial gain, power trip, disenfranchisement, anger - oftern quite undirected, but gets expressed towards seemingly random goals.

I thought it was interesting that the BBC link I posted earlier suggested that a significant number of the 'soldiers' in some of the militant extremeist groups where basically in it for the money/food/to have a goal in life and fought quite far away from home. Some of them were muslim but not of particularly fervent faith or actually religously extreme.

I am in no doubt that the vast majority of Muslims/Jews/Christian/Those that Worship the Golden Calf/add any religion you fancy want peace and gainful employment, health and happiness for themselves and those they love.
IMO the scrapping even on this thread is indicative of where things go wrong: too much arguing about semantics and concentrating on the minutiae of who said what and in what way, rather than focussing on the many ways in that we are all the same and really want the same things.
Them again my 4 boys can't get on, so how on earth I am expecting anything else from the rest of the world, I really don't know...

[MariaLuna]

No point in bringing in history, Crusades, Third Reich and all that.

That was then, this is now.

I am always saying "What the fuck is wrong with these people?" when I see another terrorist outrage.

How can you justify murdering people, whether they are pregnant women, children, men...

What happened to someone like Samantha Wheteverhername is. She has 4 children FFS!

It is scary cos it can happen to any of us any time. But that is their goal...

in my country, if you fight for a foreign cause/army, you lose your passport

[PacificDogwood]

"That was then, this is now."

I just have the sneaky suspicion that humankind does not reallty move on, sadly.

[MmeLindor]

Getting back to the topic at hand - I read today that this terror group is involved in ivory trafficking, especially in Kenya. For all the abhor the Kenyans 'attacking' their country, they conveniently forget that they have been bombing and attacking the Kenyans over the Somalia border.

We were sitting on the shores of Lake Victoria last year, when a sailboat glided past. Amid the oooh, and aaaahs, and isn't it pretty, one of our group asked the guide about the boat, and he said it would be smugglers going to Uganda. Not quite so scenic and pretty then.

The borders are impossible to control.

Duchesse
yes, I heard that the airport burnt down - or at least that there had been a fire there.

[AdventureTed]

Mango - terrorists and hate preachers are ruining our international reputation. In the past we were seen as simply being too soft on terrorists, but soon each and every one of us will be seen as potential terrorists abroad if our government don't start getting tough.

[SilverApples]

'Silver Apples -Isn't then the problem with the minds making the erroneous linking and a media which feeds those erroneous links? Wouldn't you think that European minds should be a bit more cautious about erroneous ideas about religious minorities fueled by media propaganda?'

Let's hope that the 75% influence the 25% positively and actively, rather than the other way around.
www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/24204742

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Adventure and Mango - what are you actually on about? Are you seriously saying the UK has massively more lax laws then every country on earth?

Do you honestly think our reputation is worse then when we did have a decades long terrorist conflict taking place on our soil?

What has happened in Kenya is an overspill from decades of conflict in Somalia.

[AdventureTed]

Gosh - so it has nothing to do with trying to establish a worldwide islamic caliphate?

[MmeLindor]

Why do these threads get diverted by those with an agenda?

I found it interesting to chat about what happened in Nairobi, and to find out more about the group responsible, but this is just silly now.

[SilverApples]

Well, the latest seems to be that there are 5 dead terrorists, 10 in custody and an unknown number of bodies yet to be retrieved from the building and the rubble.
The authorities are trying to work out the identities and origins of all the attackers, and whether they were all male or if the 'White Widow' was part of the attack as some claim.
So it is going to be a while before further facts are established as true, and if the terrorists were all Somalians, or whether they had direct support from terrorists from other countries that have a similar agenda.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24230160
Let's hope they succeed in keeping the peace.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Adventure - back in the 60's-80's many nationalist terrorist groups were very fond of trumpeting various Marxist rhetoric and talking about creating a workers state and inter atonal solidarity. It was all window dressing for the main aim, which is power and money.

Al Shabab is much the same, only they coat their intentions in religious language. So they want to elimante any threats to their domination. Kenya have intervened in Somalia, this attack is a way of warning Kenya to stay out.

So, the mall attack has far more to do with national power struggles then worldwide religious rule.

However, such actions require lots and lots of expendable manpower, so they have no qualms about appealing to gullible foreigners to do their donkey work, but all the Al Shabab big cheeses are and will always be Somali.

[AdventureTed]

Gosh - So the "gullible foreigners" are doing it thinking they are helping to establish a worldwide islamic caliphate?

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Possibly, or because they think it's some great adventure, feel they don't have any opportunities in their own country, some will be from other conflict zones.

However, the fact remains that that they are mere cogs, with little to no influence on what actions Al Shabab chooses to do. The attack will be seen as a suicide mission, so if thOse on it will be people viewed as expendable.

[LoveSewingBee]

Those youths may have been under the influence of fanatic Islamic preachers in the UK. They wouldn't have been the first or the last for that matter.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Yep. Just to be clear, I think religious leaders should face the same scrutiny and hate speech legislation as anyone else.

Although I think the amount of attention Anjem Choudary gets goes not help. He is one oxygen thief who should be denied publicity.

[PacificDogwood]

Here is another religious leader speaking out publicly against the attack.

"In Kaduna, northern Nigeria, one 32-year-old who did not want to be named, suggested that the lure of financial rewards rather than political ideology make it tempting to join Boko Haram." (from BBC - I linked to this upthread)

Personally, I think power and money and having a goal in life are very imortant things that attract disenfranchised, often young people to join extremist groups.
I agree, incendary speech should not be allowed to have a platform - I don't even see how that interferes with Freedom of Speech: you can say what you want in private, but not on a public stage.

I am confused as to the number of victims or bodies still missing: has everybody now been accounted for or not? Where do the 50 bodies presumed under the rubble of the mall fit in??

[boschy]

re Samantha Lewthwaite. Sky News had an interview today with a woman, wearing a headscarf, who was apparently wrongly identified as SL because she had a slightly similar appearance. This from a photo of her helping a woman covered in blood...

[MmeLindor]

Boshy
Is that the woman who was all over Twitter? I saw that, and thought that the woman was clearly not Caucasian.

Pacific
It is very confusing. I though that there were thought to be more people trapped or held as hostages.