What on EARTH happened in Kenya :-(??

[PacificDogwood]

Save us all from fanatics .

I am quite fanatically against extremists of all colours/faiths/nationalities.

What can go on in their heads when they plan an attack like this? Are they hoping to win support? Do they truly believe that atrocious acts like this wins a place in paradise?? Really?

I despair sometimes .

[farawaytreee]

I just can't get my head around the type of people who gun down children and pregnant women. To be eaten up by so much hatred and spurred by so much self entitlement. How has our evolution created such monsters.

[TheArticFunky]

I find it alarming that Samantha Lewthwaite is thought to be behind this. She has been on the wanted list for years and yet somehow managed to give birth at Stoke Mandeville in 2009. How can British citizens disappear to run terrorist training camps and then return to Buckinghamshire and give birth? How has she escaped capture for so long?

[MmeLindor]

There seems to be a lot of misinformation going around about this woman - first it is said that she is involved, then denied.

And fighting has been going on long past the time when Kenyan authorities said the siege was ended.

[applepieinthesky]

Apparently the authorities are well aware of Samantha Lewthwaite's links to Somalia and terrorist organisations, however there is no solid evidence she has committed a crime. It is absolutely astonishing how she can come and go as she pleases.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

All those calling for condemnation from Muslims,

You do realise that:

1)There are 1 billion Muslims worldwide, so why should someone living in Indonesia feel the need to be in any way implicated or involved in the horrific events in Kenya? Do you not understand that Islam is not a centralised religion, so some Muslim saying something in would have absolutely nil impact on someone in Somalia?

2)Muslims, like most human beings do not support terrorism. The idea that they need to come out and make special condemnations every time someone who happens to be Muslim does something terrible is extremely dubious. Do you honestly think we all sit in our houses being secretly pleased at such atrocities?

Do you ask all men to condemn any bad act a man does? Do prominent people of a certain race have to condemn something when someone of a similar race does something abhorrent?

3)Religion is generally window dressing for these conflicts, which usually have roots in long-term societal instability and violence, socio-economic poverty and inequality.

4)By saying Muslims have a special duty to condemn these acts, you are implicating us as being in some way responsible. I refuse to apologise for something I did not do. What happened, in Kenya, Pakistan and Iraq is horrific, I condemn it as a human being, I feel no need to make extra condemnations, just because I happen to share a religion with the perpetrators.

However, because my google is special, I managed to find this rather comprehensive list of official Muslim condemnations of terrorism: www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

[GoshAnneGorilla]

I also managed to find this from the UK's largest Muslim organisation, the Muslim Council of Britain:

www.mcb.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=2386:pr-template&catid=40:press-release

[SilverApples]

I wasn't asking or expecting condemnations from Muslims, as you say, it's a widespread faith and Muslims have been killing Muslims for generations.without much notice being taken of the conflicts. Likewise in Asia and Africa, with the various Christian and Muslim conflicts.
It's one of the possible reasons why there has been little progress made in Syria over the last few years, it's not seen as something that needs to involve the West. Someone Else's Problem.
But as long as Islam and indiscriminate terrorism continue to be linked in the minds of many in Europe and elsewhere, there will be a climate of mistrust, hostility and suspicion which does no good for anyone.
Like in England in the 70s where being Southern Irish and in possession of an accent made you automatically suspect as a member or supporter of the IRA.

[SilverApples]

' Do you honestly think we all sit in our houses being secretly pleased at such atrocities? '

However erroneous, I think a large number of ordinary people do. That's the point of terrorism, to breed terror.
Did you see this article?
www.theguardian.com/world/2006/oct/17/gender.religion

[SilverApples]

Apologies, that online article is a different one to the one I was looking for.
Rosie Kinchen wrote an article for the ST news review about the responses of the public when she wore a niqab in London, and again when she visited a village in Sussex.
www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/newsreview/features/article1316602.ece

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Silver Apples -Isn't then the problem with the minds making the erroneous linking and a media which feeds those erroneous links? Wouldn't you think that European minds should be a bit more cautious about erroneous ideas about religious minorities fueled by media propaganda?

[SilverApples]

I agree that it would be an excellent way forwards, but there is no historical evidence that this is the case, or will be in the future.
When people are frightened, the instinct always seems to be to huddle with like types, and to alienate and blame 'the other' The more alien an individual seems, the less likely to be accepted as safe.
My grandmother, born 1904 was a woman with strong racist opinions. Except for her lovely doctor, and her neighbour across the way who was so nice, and the binman.. and...people she saw as part of her life and whom she liked.
If Muslims within a Western community are perceived to be a threat, the consequences are always much worse for the minority. Every one home-grown terrorist is infinitely more terrifying than a hundred Muslim terrorists elsewhere.
I used to walk under a bridge to my place of work, with a huge piece of graffiti saying 'WHITES ENTER AT YOUR OWN RISK'
The fact that it had been painted by a group of teenage arseholes from the Bengali community, none of whom were over 16 was irrelevant to the town, it was seen as evidence by many of the white community as proof that there were 'no-go areas' and that the area I worked in was rife with terrorists. Assaults, vandalism and riots instigated by different groups within the town were common.
So, the situation/incident/act of terrorism in Kenya will have enormous ramifications for Muslim communities in areas around the world, and staying silent on the issue will be seen as complicity by many.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Silver - It would appear that prominent Muslims haven't stayed silent, see links upthead.

If Kenya does have "enormous ramifications" - by this rather passive phrasing I take it you mean hateful individuals attacking Muslims, that is absolutely not the fault of the Muslim community, but of those bigots.

To state otherwise is victim blaming.

[SilverApples]

No disagreement from me about attacks by bigots being entirely their responsibility and hateful. I still have a scar from a bottle that was thrown at my class when we were heading up to the library. What provocation 9 year olds offered to the group that yelled racist insults at them I have no idea.

Nor am I expecting European minds to be 'a bit more cautious about erroneous ideas about religious minorities fueled by media propaganda'
I'm expecting a number of Daily Mail type knee jerk responses by frightened and aggressive non-Muslims and an increase in race hate attacks on individuals and buildings. Which we went through during the first and second Gulf wars.
Hopefully the legal response will be equal to the demand, and we can create a better society.

[bemybebe]

If something is done in the name of Allah, it makes sense that those, who share the same religion make it clear that this is not part of their own belief. Being of the same race/gender, basically sharing something that is not chosen, is not the same.

I think it will help the way islam is viewed by others and that is a good thing.

[PacificDogwood]

Gosh, thank you for those links - I will read them in peace when DS4 is in bed a bit later.
I fully appreciate that Islam is not a centralised religion and I in no way expect that whatever somebody in world ways to have an immediate effect on, say, Somalian terrorists/extremists. I am more concerned about how islamophobia is affecting to many scared people and is turning them rather horribly racist.

I feel that the Catholic church committed a terrible sin of omission by not being more outspoken against fascism in Germany in the '30s, for instance. It may not have been able to stop the holocaust from happening, but apart from some brave individuals there was thundering silence.
Equally Jewish settlers and the army that supports them (officially and inofficially) have committed atrocities. Anybody trying to be critical of some of their acts is easily accused of antisemitism.
In the same vein I think it is fair to hope for those Muslims who are just as appalled about recent attacks (and previous ones) to speak out about them - where ever they are in the world.

For the record, I in no way believe that Europeans are any more rathional, less fanatical or prone to violence than any other peoples in the world.

[SilverApples]

Be aware Pacific, most of those links are over a decade old and many no longer link to a relevant article.

[SilverApples]

This interesting article was hidden in the links GAG provided.
www.islamicity.com/m/news_frame.asp?Frame=1&referenceID=73460

[Worriedformyfriend]

Robert Salaam is an impressive man.

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Pacific - those are false equivalences. The Catholic Church was an large and powerful organisation within Germany with massive influence, who could have made a direct stand.

As to your other example, you don't meant Jewish, you mean Israeli. All Jews are not Israeli. I don't assume that Jews in other countries are in any way responsible for the actions of the Israeli state.

All Muslims are not living in Pakistan, Somalia or Iraq and do not have links to that place, hence them speaking out would have nil impact except to appease bigots who think all Muslims are bad/responsible for bad things anyway.

Bemybebe - To many people their religious affliation isn't a choice, it's part of their culture and heritage, anyway you've missed my point about holding a group of people collectively responsible for the actions of a distant minority. It makes as much sense to view Muslims in Kazakhstan (to give an example) as somehow culpable and thus needing to apologise/explain, for the atrocities in Kenya as it does to blame men in Australia for the hideous rates of femicide in El Salvador.

Also, the Somali conflict goes far, far deeper then "people doing things in the name of Allah". It is a broken society and there are many factors behind this. To paint it as a situation that is "All about the Islam", is facile and pointless.

[SilverApples]

You are right G, we are never going to understand the complexities of the various situations in different countries around the world where Muslims are killing indiscriminately in the name of God.
Best stay out of it, our ignorance will only cause more damage.
Concentrate on building an inclusive, rational and compassionate society in our own back yard, with human rights given legal protection.

[Worriedformyfriend]

Gosh. Where do you think the money comes from for these attacks?

[duchesse]

Did any of you know about Nairobi airport having burned down last month? My sister said the airport is currently operating out of tents and that security is therefore not great there... I wonder if the two incidents are related?

[GoshAnneGorilla]

Silver -That is such an ignorant comment. So, so ignorant. Are you unable to read to gain a better understand behind conflicts? Or are you just being sarcastic?

Worried - Piracy is a sizeable money spinner for Al Shabab. But such attacks are not very expensive anyway. Somalia is a warzone and has been for decades, so guns and explosives are freely available.

[SilverApples]

'Silver -That is such an ignorant comment. So, so ignorant. '

Worthy of The Daily Mail, The Sun, The Express, The Mirror etc and their millions of readers wasn't it?
Let alone what the tabloid equivalent in dozens of other western countries and Australia are printing. Do you see the chasm opening?