That bloody ISP porn filter bollocks is back again

[MurderOfGoths]

BBC News article

And because I can't be bothered to type it all out yet again, here's a load of reasons why it's a load of bollocks

Why it's wishing for a unicorn

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

Um... I work with them boney. They don't like speaking about it much because people make them feel stupid. They do their best to hide it and muddle through.

It's a bit like moving to a foreign country as an adult and learning the language. You will never ever speak it or understand it as well as your DC who have grown up speaking it.

Yes people need to try and learn this stuff, absolutely, but we should be supporting that learning and not making people feel like idiots for not knowing because then they won't learn they'll just wish for unicorns.

[MurderOfGoths]

Education really is key isn't it? Shame it's not the exciting option, maybe then the govt would get behind it

[BellEndTent]

Perhaps that needs to be emphasised more then
Murder, I think it's pretty easy to grasp but can understand that maybe others do not agree.

I'm a bit on the fence. I don't like the government involvement angle, have little faith in them but as far as I can see, they aren't trying to censor what adults can view, it's an optional filter to stop children seeing potentially damaging things. But once you open the gates...

I also don't like that it is a cover-all and if we implemented it, DH and I who are both obviously adults, couldn't view adult material if we so chose. I would gladly take the hit if it made it even a bit more difficult for my sons to access porn when they are older though. I can only imagine the effect some of the stuff online would have when viewed by someone very sexually immature.

I'd certainly think very carefully about doing it.

[BellEndTent]

That's the bit that worries me, the not knowing what has been blocked from a hell of a lot of households.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

PlentyOfPubeGardens

You work with and speak for all of the 40 - 50 yr olds?

A lot of the programmers that I know are 40+ years old.

It is more likely that you speak for some of the age group.

strangely enough the OAP computer club would counter your anecdotal evidence.

[niceguy2]

I've not read all the posts since my broadband is playing up so forgive me if this has already been said.

I'm going to try & avoid the techie speak as it clearly bamboozles a lot of people and I can understand why your average person in the street may welcome this as a good idea. It's plainly not but I can see the appeal.

What really pisses me off is the govt have clearly been totally deaf to the industry who have told them it's not a good idea at all.

To make matters worse, they're using the old "These big companies should be doing more" argument without really understanding why. Do you really think Google wants child porn on their search indexes!?!?! Of course not!

And now we're going a step further than simply blocking porn but now we're being told we're not even to be allowed to search for certain terms which have been deemed 'horrific' (without defining the word).

Oh and absolutely no mention of the fact there are tools already out there that are free and able to do the job today without the need for legislation.

What it tells me is the govt has simply politicised the subject to so they can appear pro-family. Doesn't matter if there's a free better solution already available. Doesn't matter if the solution they're forcing ISP's to adopt is full of holes.

Just so long as they get a few positive headlines.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

Education really is key isn't it?

Yes, it really is.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

You work with and speak for all of the 40 - 50 yr olds?

Where have I said this? I know loads of 40+ programmers too, including myself. It doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of muddlers out there.

[MurderOfGoths]

"There are illiterate adults out there. How do you get them setting up firewalls, secure networks and filtering?"

This is off the top of my head, so haven't thought too deeply. But surely some clever company could create a filtering system with options to install different levels of filter? So it'd be as simple as choosing an age appropriate one. It wouldn't be a perfect solution obviously, even if the different packages were customisable, if people weren't confident customising them. But they'd still be better than nothing or a blanket filter.

I think what I'd most like to see is a freeware program (crowdsourced especially) that had these different levels of use (age 5-7, 10-12, etc). Maybe the lower levels set as a whitelist of approved kid friendly sites, then opened up as a blacklist for the older age groups. With the ability to send reports of sites that are wrongly blocked or not blocked to a wiki style set up which could then be moderated and used to update the filtering programme. I'm pretty certain something like this probably already exists - DS is 16mo though so I've not really looked too much into them.

They key would be if the govt would point people to it, maybe even offering a download via their website. Even better if the ISP's and mobile networks could promote it and help by having their tech bods cooperating with it, sharing data, skills and testing it and making sure it worked with their devices. Maybe even giving the option of having it installed when people have internet access set up?

That way there is the option of using it, people know it can be trusted, and it covers all different family set ups with relative ease. So one user can view adult content, while another can be shielded, and another can have partial access.

[MurderOfGoths]

Boney There's no denying that some 40-50 year olds are totally inept at computers, and they could do with some help. Fuck it, some 15-20 year olds are!

[BoneyBackJefferson]

"It doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of muddlers out there."

I bet that the majority of them can programme a VCR (ok probably extinct), Sky+, Tivo etc.

All require setting up, its no different from a broadband filtering system.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

I don't deny that there are some people that are inept at computers but it doesn't mean that they can't learn.

[LtEveDallas]

BoneyBack, I work with a 41 year old who asks me to search for stuff on the Internet as 'you know how to do all that eve' and a 30 year old who thought the 'big red button to stop child porn' was a good thing (I showed her Murders unicorn site, and used the Lego analogy before she 'got it').

I think there are probably very few under 30s that wouldn't understand, but my DH (48) has DD (8) running rings round him on a regular basis where the computer is concerned. He even has to write his passwords down...and before now has had DD say 'no, that's not it dad, it's XXX'. There are probably lots around like him.

DD worked out my password once for my apple account and downloaded stuff. It gave me a kick up the arse and now I have a double password and have set up some restrictions - I hadn't actually realised how savvy she was. Parents need to take more responsibility and I worry that relying on the Gov will mean they think they don't have to.

[SanityClause]

This thread has been very enlightening.

I hadn't really thought about it, although I would generally tend towards the belief that too much censorship is probably a bad thing.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

LtEveDallas

this
"I hadn't actually realised how savvy she was"
and this
"and I worry that relying on the Gov will mean they think they don't have to."

IMO most parents don't know how savvy there children are and are shocked that that can circumvent a lot of the security systems.

The bigger question should be
What is next?

If so many parents are so inept are we going the regulate online gaming?
Its very easy for a child to get on to casinos, or online rpgs because violent gaming is a breeding ground for violent children.,

[MurderOfGoths]

"If so many parents are so inept are we going the regulate online gaming?"

Most of it has age ratings, which many parents ignore as they think their child is a special snowflake who the age ratings don't apply to.

When you have that level of ignorance do we really think parents will still supervise their kids and use home filters when the ISP filter is in place?

[NotGoodNotBad]

Given that there are parents who let their children watch all kinds of stuff on the television, what are the realistic chances of these parents regulating the internet for their children?

A couple of examples - in DD's primary school leavers' book, each child had a profile with likes, dislikes etc - the most popular TV programme was The Inbetweeners . And one of DD's male classmates had an 11th birthday party where they all stayed up all night watching 18-rated films.

[flatpackhamster]

NotGoodNotBad

Given that there are parents who let their children watch all kinds of stuff on the television, what are the realistic chances of these parents regulating the internet for their children?

A couple of examples - in DD's primary school leavers' book, each child had a profile with likes, dislikes etc - the most popular TV programme was The Inbetweeners . And one of DD's male classmates had an 11th birthday party where they all stayed up all night watching 18-rated films.

In that case, it's clear. The only moral, responsible thing that any government would do is install a censorship device on everyone's television. You have to phone up the licencing agency and tell them that you want to watch material suitable for adults. Otherwise all you get is the Food Channel and Cbeebies.

It's for your own good. No more grown-up TV.

[MurderOfGoths]

"In that case, it's clear. The only moral, responsible thing that any government would do is install a censorship device on everyone's television. You have to phone up the licencing agency and tell them that you want to watch material suitable for adults. Otherwise all you get is the Food Channel and Cbeebies.

It's for your own good. No more grown-up TV."

And this has the advantage that it is technically possible. Wonder when we'll see Call me Dave backing this?

[LtEveDallas]

Yes Boneyback. I must admit, that despite me thinking I was a pretty 'savvy' parent, I was shocked when DD asked me a question I didn't know the answer to and casually said "Lets Google it". I didn't actually realise she knew what Google was, or how it worked. I mean she was 7 then and it just didn't occur to me.

Then when she worked out my apple password (and by default my hotmail and amazon too - yes, I was that person) I finally realised that it was time to set up some net nanny type restrictions on our home PC.

Before then I had wrongly assumed that she didn't 'know' enough to be unsafe.

She likes making powerpoint presentations, and searches for images to use in them. Using my own home filters means that when she googled "Big Balls" for a presentation about how she wanted a giant football means that we didn't have any nasty surprises . How would the Government's filters deal with that one?

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

I don't deny that there are some people that are inept at computers but it doesn't mean that they can't learn.

Of course they can learn. That's why I'm proposing education. I really don't think it helps making people feel like idiots for not knowing this stuff. That doesn't promote learning it promotes continued ignorance.

Murder, I like your suggestion in your Tue 23-Jul-13 21:37:18 post.

[NotGoodNotBad]

We have laws that prevent minors from buying alcohol and cigarettes, we don't expect parents to police this. Why should access to internet porn be different?