Mandela critically ill

[janey68]

Not unexpected but nevertheless sad.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-23024836

[Boomba]

really?

i dont think he is having his dignity taken from him, by the media interest

it must be hard for his family though

[zamantha]

Such an iconic figure, someone to admire and who we all look back and remember his release ( and what we were doing around that time - groundbreaking) and what a amazing victory and political change that was.

I remember seeing a documentary when I was a teen and Mandela was in prison and Black activists and ordinary people were convinced - " we will only find freedom through the barrel of a gun"

It is a sad world when over and over people can find no other way - I think change would have been a long time coming without violent protest - very sadly as I am a pacifist - but we must remember violence of all sorts was acted out upon innocent black civilians by the state and others.

[encyclogirl]

Is his dignity being compromised though? I'm not surprised the whole world is watching. The whole world loves him.

I don't feel sad that a 94 year old is passing on, but I am extremely moved by this man in every way and feel lucky to have been able to live in his time.

[Panonabike]

Imagine the consequence if he isn't the man who he is, and doesn't do what he does?

[wannaBe]

I don't get all the outpourings either tbh. He is 94. Most people don't live that long.

I do however get the notion that people are saying they want him go carry on "for them". This isn't too far from the truth - I grew up in South Africa and there has for a long time been a lot of concern about the stability of the country once he dies. At the moment Mandela represents a peaceful state in SA, but that is by no means assured, and there are lots of concerns over what will happen once he is no longer there.

I also know personally at least two people who were injured in ANC bombings and even when I w=was at school from about 30 years ago we used to have to do bomb drills "just in case," but this part of history is never talked about. One man's terrorist and all that....

[EldritchCleavage]

One man's terrorist?

I personally find taking up arms against an evil regime like apartheid entirely understandable, right and just. People suffered horribly under that regime. Can anyone really be saying that a black person taking up arms against apartheid was not fighting for freedom? Really?

So I embrace his role in founding Spear of the Nation and still find him a towering moral figure.

[fancyanamechange]

what exactly will his legacy be? South Africa is one of the most violent countries in the world, massive poverty, widespread rape of women and children. What did he achieve for his country? That the black leaders get to oppress the people, instead of the white leaders oppressing them?

[EldritchCleavage]

Is it all on Mandela (out of power for a while now)? You don't think the years of apartheid violence and economic imbalance have anything to do with where SA is now?

[wannaBe]

the problem is that this is how much of Africa has evolved. Kenya, South Africa, Zimbabwe... need I say more?

And the proble is that the violence wasn't all just the ANC against the white regime, there was much tribal violence, there was much burning down of schools and libraries in the townships. Necklacings (google it if you don't know what I'm referring to) didn't happen black on white - they happened in the black townships.

It's easy to blame apartheid for the violent state that SA is currently in, but truth is that South Africa is just going the way the rest of Africa was already.

[EldritchCleavage]

just going the way the rest of Africa was already

What, all of it?

Like Ghana, Botswana, Morocco, Benin, Burkina, just off the top of my head?

[fancyanamechange]

So what will his legacy be? That he had a nice smile like Pope John Paul II?

[notmydog]

I have to agree with wannabee and fancy. Madiba's legacy in South Africa is dead. There is currently far too much racism, violence, crime, animosity, complete breakdown in public services and severe corruption. The few golden years when Mandela was President are long gone.

[Boomba]

there might be all those things. But there isnt apartheid

[Salbertina]

Exactly- his legacy is democracy and the ending of apartheid. There is HOPE, at least for the kids. People can travel freely, there is a black majority government, however flawed.

ANC terrorism was warranted in former times and is not whitewashed away. It is extensively covered at the apartheid museum in Johannesburg and is included in the school curriculum.

Africa is hugely diverse and rapidly, rapidly developing at breathtaking speed. For example, Angola has more Portuguese economic refugees than vice versa, Botswana is stable, peaceful and thriving. Mozambique is on the up. The potential here is huge.

[Boomba]

Kenya is democratic

[notmydog]

It's taking a lot for me to have negative thoughts about South Africa. But I can't help feeling an overwhelming sense of disappointment. The 'new South Africa' was a dream coming true for me. I was a young student in Political Science when Mandela got released. I attended one of his first speeches after release, at the UP campus. What he has done for the country cannot ever be measured. He has prevented civil war after Chris Hani's assassination, I don't think too many people realise how close we were to an actual civil war. He was the last great statesman South Africa has seen.

I don't see Mandela's ideals are what the current government has in mind. Many millions of black people are still poor, still suffer indignity, but this time at the hands of their own people. The ANC VERY clearly does not care one single ounce about the wellbeing of its voters. Intimidation and corruption is incredibly rife. Most current politicians are only looking to line their own pockets.

This is why I'm saying Madiba's legacy is dead.

[clarinetV2]

I hope they let him go peacefully. He's an old man and his life's achievements are truly remarkable. But I'll be very sad when it happens, partly because of what he stands for (freedom and justice) and partly because supporting the ANC was a defining part of my youth and the day of his release one of the days I will never forget, when the world looked brighter. For much of the 80s when I was campaigning we seriously thought he would rot and die in prison even while we campaigned for his release. This is said without romanticising what he did. I don't think MK (Spear of the Nation) should be airbrushed out of the picture and Mandela painted as some non-violent saint - he was a realistic fighter for freedom and justice, and in the final instance he was prepared to resort to armed struggle. That happened and although I don't think it should be glorified, we should remember the struggle as it was. But in his ability to forgive those who imprisoned him and move on without bitterness, and his determination to convert armed struggle to political struggle at every opportunity, he was truly an inspiration. Now's his time to go, and I wish him the very best.

[Salbertina]

I see what you're saying then- you mean currently, as rests with ANC gov? To a large extent i agree, but am more hopeful in medium term. I think SA is muddling through lots of issues and it is a messy, time-consuming and unwieldy process. I do think MAdiba's legacy lives on despite this current mess. Where is the country without hope?

[wannaBe]

I think that SA will go the same way as Zimbabwe tbh.

There is lots of conspiracy out there that he is already dead and has been for a long time!

[notmydog]

Lets hope not wannabe
I've always refused to believe that SA will go the same way as Zimbabwe.
I'm back in the UK now after 6 years in SA. I couldn't justify exposing my daughter to the ridiculous levels of violent crime and ever present thread of rape anymore.

[Salbertina]

Well, i live here. I do not believe a Zim situation will happen for all sorts of reasons.

[conorsrockers]

What are those reasons Salbertina? I'm genuinely interested. I have family in SA and Zim and just booked flights to go see them with the kids soon. Everyone thinks I'm bonkers!

[Cinnamom]

Salbertina I do live here (I was born in Zimbabwe and moved to SA in 1979). I DO believe we are going the same way as Zim. Unless you live in a different SA to me.

[Salbertina]

Well i probably live in a different part and obv experience a different life as am a different person .. So of course, matter of opinion. I am no apologist for Zuma and his cronies either.
Back to Mandela anyone?