GCSEs are to stay!

[SPBInDisguise]

I didn't see that coming. Sorry if there's a thread already, I did look.

story here

[edam]

I'm glad Gove has finally backed down. He's been so bullish since becoming education sec, determined to do things his way, even when his way is ruddy stupid.

[pointythings]

claig most university courses are modular. most workplace learning is modular - as in, you get set a project, you do the research, you complete the project, you go on to the next thing. The same applies to training and professional development.

Modular assessment is a far better reflection of how we are measured in the real world - that of work. Exams just test how good we are at, er, doing exams.

And I say that as someone who is really, really good at cramming-style exams, and has two DDs who are cut from the same cloth.

The important thing is equipping children for real life.

[ShipwreckedAndComatose]

What are exams all about then, claig?

[amothersplaceisinthewrong]

I hope he still gets rid of coursework - I think thethre hour exam at the end of the two year course (as in the old "O" levels) is far better. They were never just a memory test, yes they suited brighter children better, but so what?

[TalkinPeace2]

NB
To all those who say multiple exam boards create grade inflation
bilge
there were even more exam boards back when grades were on Normal distribution

political pressure created grade inflation.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Regarding exams I just don't think it's really appreciated how variable people's memories and short term memory ability can be. In fact I don't think Gove appreciates any such diversity or non neurotypical (NNT) variance at all. It just doesn't seem to figure on his radar.

So, mother's place it's not just that they suited brighter children better, that's not my problem with them. I did OK in my O levels, though better in my A's as there was less to remember and more to understand. I went to a good RG Uni too. But I think there's a lot of stress on people at exam time especially if they don't find cramming lots of info comes easily to them. I think I'd like to see more "open book" exams so English Lit with the texts available, and Physics with a sheet of useful equations - at least for some of the papers.

[ravenAK]

Coursework went 3 years ago.

Eng Lit is open book.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Oh well thanks for that raven - I loved English literature but could never remember which act and scene all my carefully remembered quotes were from It wasn't open book in my day ! So, glad it will be for my DC's

[TheVipperofVipp]

JugglingFromHereToThere, you asked upthread "Remind me someone ... what subjects are included in the (continuing) EBacc?"

From The Guardian website on replacing the EBacc measure in league tables:

In its place will come a..."value added" measure taking in pupils' progress up to their GCSE in eight subjects from three areas ?
English and maths;
Three subjects from the sciences, history and geography, languages and computer science;
and three "additional subjects", taking in arts and "high quality vocational subjects".

So it does seem much wider than the previous EBacc measure. HTH.

[TheVipperofVipp]

Also, it won't be based on acheiving a C or above in these subjects, but "an average point score showing how much progress every student makes between Key Stage 2 and Key Stage 4" across the 8 subjects.

(This is just the league table measure, as said, VERY confusing both the new, now scrapped, exam and the league table measure were both called EBacc...)

[WENDYEG57]

Halelujah! maybe there is a God in heaven after all. I was so concerned at the marginalisation (or complete abandonment) of the arts in the proposed EBAC. Mr Gove said that young people should learn to appreciate great works of art. No Mr Gove-they should be creating them.

[jamdonut]

Well at least my daughter should have a job in the future!. She wants to be a senior school music teacher! It has been a battle for her (and some of her friends) to be able to take music as an option at GCSE, as she has been forced down the "eBacc" pathway.

It makes me mad that Music is not considered an academic subject. Have you seen what they have to achieve? I couldn't do it , and I'm not stupid!

My 2 youngest children have been on the receiving end of so many changes during their educational career. It doesn't seem fair.

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Thanks for that summary Vipper - very helpful !

Agree about music jamdonut - my DS(11) is working towards his grade 5 music theory which his teacher says is a similar standard to GCSE and it is fiendish ! Then for GCSE I think there's either the opportunity or requirement to play an instrument to quite a high standard as well. Then probably some music appreciation and history too ? I had a quick look at the music page in DD's options booklet, but more with a mind to what DS might choose too. We'd already chosen DD's subjects, so DS thought he'd have a go at choosing his 3 as well ! He's thinking Music, Art, and PE - Hmm, I'm not sure he'll get away with no history or geography - but we'll have to see !

[JugglingFromHereToThere]

Also where are they putting RS (or RE) in that list ? I'd have thought it would lie more naturally with history and geography as a humanity subject ? But are they including it in the "additional subjects" ? - in which case it should get a mention ? as "taking in arts and high quality vocational subjects" doesn't really cover it. Also PE - could be a very useful subject eg If my DS might want to be a primary teacher or sports coach ? (so I guess could count as vocational subject ?) But also important for all our young people to be keeping active and taking part in sport ? (especially with a rising national obesity problem ?)

[Xenia]

Some of mine have done music and 3 won music scholarship, almost full marks in grade 5 theory at 12 etc.. I always loved music theory and almost got full marks, distinction in grade 8 theory - my misspent youth as a teenager.. laughing as I type...

My list above was the core 9 GCSEs most pupils at academic schools will do.There is no reason music or RE cannot be one of your 9 or 10 GCSEs but no reason aslso if you're quite bright you cannot do your english lang, eng lit, maths, a language or two, 2 or 3 sciences and history and geog. That is a rounded list. If a child is not particularly bright then they may struggle to pass basic maths and English and probably should be prioritising that as they are so important in most jobs - biggest problem Tesco finds with recruits is basic adding up and written and spoken English.

[newgirl]

in what world was RE not a humanity? surely it is the definition of a humanity subject! it was fantastic o and a level choice for me that helped me get a good uni place to do english. Just thought I'd throw that in. I'm not religious either 0 just fascinated.

glad new scheme abandoned

[Erebus]

I am seeing a lot of confusion on here about the E. Bacc (English Baccalaureate) and the EBC (English Baccalareate Certificate) exams Gove wanted to replace GCSEs with.

They are 2 separate things. Don't confuse them.

The E.Bacc isn't a qualification, it is a school league table measure brought in with no notice 2 or so years ago. That's the one that requires a DC to have 5 GCSE passes inc Maths, Eng, Science, MFL, and either history or geography. This measure, to the very best of my knowledge has not been scrapped so your Y9 DC may find that suddenly they can't just change their preferences as the school still needs to perform in the E.Bacc league table.

The EBC was a totally different, new exam system, akin to changing O levels and CSEs into GCSEs.

Now, I am no fan of Gove whatsoever BUT, consider this:

Cos he can't have his EBC exams, instead he is 'tightening up' GCSEs, making them more rigorous and 'linear' as opposed to modular. This means that your Y9 DC will have to be 'better' in order to get an A or B than a DC who sat the GCSE say last year, whose grade may well have been achieved through modular resits and needing to only be in the top 20% to get that A. Your Y9 will have to sit down over maybe 2 exams and be examined on 2 years work in one hit, needing to be maybe in the top 8-10% to get that A.

5 years hence, an employer or even slightly lazy college course Admissions person will see one DC as having done better than the other, in other words, the one who did the 'easier' GCSE.

I actually would rather they had changed the name of the exam to indicate that it's testing different qualities at a different level, myself! I am an old O level fogey and it took a while for young upstarts with their 13 GCSEs all at grade A (but who couldn't spell 'committee' and couldn't even vaguely demonstrate where Nepal was on a map, or do a percentage calculation etc etc!) to recognise that my 8 O levels, 3 A, 2 Bs, 3 Cs were every bit their 'equal'!

What Gove should have done is to propose these changes, investigate them, trial them, heed expert advice- not weigh in with 'OK, I'm in charge, this is what's going to happen in 2 years time, syllabus starting this September (as yet unwritten, mind...) whether you like it or not' which has caused antagonism and an increasing belief that the bloke's an idiot- and made him look like a prize twerp for having to U turn. Again.

And he's chucked the baby out with the bathwater regarding Exam Boards- maybe the most sensible idea in there- so schools can't shop around.

I'd like to see grade A's going to only the most able DCs, but a sliding scale to allow the DC heading for an apprenticeship to demonstrate a good, solid, but not terribly sophisticated working knowledge of that subject. Dare I say 'like a CSE used to'?! I mean, actually, they are already doing this via the tiered exams, aren't they? Where you can only get a top mark of a C in the lower paper. I don't know how different the syllabus is between the tiers but I know the CSE syllabi were quite different to the O levels as a few of us were entered for both at my GS in 1978.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

Erebus

1. The current EBacc performance measure requires 2 sciences. Not one. But this is going to be replaced by a new performance measure which will be based on pupils? average scores across a suite of 8 qualifications. The 8 qualifications counted in the measure will be English, mathematics, 3 further English Baccalaureate (EBacc) subjects, and 3 other high value qualifications ? EBacc, other academic, arts or vocational.' At this point no further specifics are known in particular how many sciences will be required and what will be the critera for the 'other high value qualification' designation.
   

1. Many many young people do terminal GCSEs now.
   

1. I do not agree that 8 O levels at the grades you quote are 'equal' to 13 GCSEs all at A (or A* grade come to that) grade. I have 10 O levels all at grade A and I don't think my qualifications are any better than those of the top kids today. While some of the exams today are indeed 'easier' (maths and french) many of them are much more onerous (eg music, english, history, geography)
   

1. The idea about scrapping the various exam boards and introducing a monopoly body was not only not sensible it was also probably contrary to EU law.

[Donki]

I'm far from convinced that this is a U-turn. As far as I can see, the only things that have changed are that they will still be called GCSE's, and each subject won't be put out to tender for a single exam board.

The rest is just the same as the original proposal - and with the same ridiculously tight timetable for implementation.

Gove levels just without the label change.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

No, there is a certain amount of u turn because the previous proposals would have introduced two tiers of qualifications - EBCs and GCSEs and downgraded a whole (extremely) important sphere of education - arts subjects. Now, the exams for arts subjects will still have exactly the same status as the exams for non arts subjects (assuming that music, art, drama GCSE are given the status of 'other high value qualifications'. This is a massive thing for arts ed.

The move back to multiple exam boards is a U turn too. Albeit an enforced one.

You are right that there is little u turn as to the contents of the syllabus for some of the subjects which were going to be EBCs.

[educatingarti]

This

^"We must stop politicians constantly tinkering around with education and
using our kids as guinea pigs."^

And this

"Regarding exams I just don't think it's really appreciated how variable people's memories and short term memory ability can be. In fact I don't think Gove appreciates any such diversity or non neurotypical (NNT) variance at all. It just doesn't seem to figure on his radar."

As a tutor, I am so glad that Gove has been made to see sense changed his mind!

[Erebus]

I was being facetious about '13 A grade GCSEs, actually! The person concerned certainly has 13 of them but readily admits to a massive number of resits and 'equivalents'- and how much modular work they were 'helped' with...

O levels and those style of GCSEs don't measure the same thing.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

You do realise that many many young people do not take 'equivalents', do not do 'a massive number of resits' and don't have 'help' with 'modular work'?

You haven't really done your research, have you. :(

[TalkinPeace2]

There were MORE exam boards in the 1970's than there are now.
Exam boards were not the problem,
removal of Normal distribution grading and political pressure to show improvement was.

[RussiansOnTheSpree]

Talkin - don't forget the pressure to be more attractive to students. This is a big component in the reduction in standards in mfl and maths. Luckily in most other subjects the standards are significantly higher than they were back in the day - unfortunately Gove seems determined to turn the clock back in History and possibly in geog too (I'm not certain about that - the minute he mentioned map reading I had a pavlovian reaction and I missed the rest of what he sad about geog)