Israel/Palestine

[CheerfulYank]

Um...not to be a stupid American who knows nothing about global concerns, but... I have pregnancy brain, does anyone want to give me a basic outline of what's happening?

[GrimmaTheNome]

It was part of the Ottoman Empire up till WWI. Then it was administered by the British Mandate, supposedly "until such time as they are able to stand alone". However there was also a promise to set up a Jewish homeland in the same space "Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country"


It didn't quite work out that way, unfortunately.

[bitofcheese]

btw, i know people are always doing fundraisers for palestine, i wasn't making reference to that, i refer to the many extremely rich arabl surrounding countries ie saudi arabia, qatar to name but a few. they have so much cash they could make such a difference...

[bitofcheese]

my 'just curious' post was a genuine curious post. it is a real question with no hidden meaning. it is a poor place, palestine but i have often wondered why there isn't loads of money being pumped in the way israel has always had money pumped in. fwiw i am not pro israel/anti palestine, i sit on the fence and am neurtral, there is bad shit that happens by both. it was a genuine question

[Saski]

OK well, I frequent North End Road and I never see these anti-Jewish publications. Much like you never saw anti-Arab ones in Israel.
If your previous "just curious" post is implying that the Arab nations don't look after the Palestinians; I have no idea. You might be correct. But, Arab individuals the world over fundraise tirelessly on behalf of Palestinians. We couldn't possibly attend even half of Palestinian fundraisers we're invited to (by Arab organizations).

[bitofcheese]

when i lived in west london i used to regularly go to shops in queensway where there are mostly arab run newsagents. incredible but the shops used to have wall to ceiling anti semetic literature on display as if it was as natural as the radio times and womens own. i should have reported it but i didn't, still annoyed with myself that i didn't. when lived in israel never saw anything like this in the newsagents over there, never.

[Bessie123]

breadandbutterfly sorry to leave you on your own to try to reiterate points, I'm afraid I don't have the patience to keep explaining things to people who will always refuse to acknowledge the Arab world's disgusting behaviour to Israel. I feel like it's a waste of time - these people don't want to hear a rational argument, they want a victim story about poor Palestinians. Never mind what Israel has had to go through and continues to.

Btw, to anyone who is interested, I have never, ever heard a 'Zionist' diatribe in my life, although I have heard thousands of anti-Israel ones. I think, as with everything else connected to this subject there is a complete lack of balance. I'm not saying it's impossible that there are anti-Arab or anti Hamas speeches by Jews (what's with all this 'Zionist' shit anyway) but bet there are huge numbers more of anti-Israel ones.

[donnie]

breadandbutterfly what is your view of the massacre at Deir Yassin? or did that not really happen either?


what do you think about the fact that Menachim Begin, one of the Israeli PMs, was also an active member of Irgun and Stern gang which murdered around 90 people when it detonated bombs in the King David Hotel. would you call him a 'terrorist' - as a bomber and murderer - or would you call him a 'freedom fighter' ? and then I would like you to ask yourself the same question of Hamas.




What do you think of the Israeli commitment to annexing more and more Palestinian land by way of illegal settlements whcih Netanyahu explained away to Hillary Clinton as 'necessary for natural expansion'. What would you think if a load of Palestinian refugees were suddenly given their right to return and reclaimed their homes and villages from occupying Israelis? would you want that? or would you feel aggrieved for those Israelis?

Oh and btw - for every mad, rabid Al Q'aeda anti semitic rant you can find on youtube, I can find an equally mad, rabid UltraZionistic antiArab rant as well. So don't go down the road of sourcing crackpot dodgy 'news' sources. You will only get them right back at you, many times over.

The Israeli treatment of Palestine and Palestinians is tantamount to ethnic cleansing. I am just listening to Abbas now, live at the UN and it makes me cry, it really does. They are a cowed, impoverished and deprived people whose land, such as it is, is being taken brick by brick, field by field. The blockade - around 4 years old now? - is utterly indefensible but yet remains in force. And when ships of Aid are sent from outside sources they are stormed by Mossad forces and the inhabitants are killed.

Anyway I am not going to say anything more just now. Except for one more thing : you can be quite sure, Breadandbutterfly, that although Israel is indeed mighty and well armed, they are also largely despised, and - sadly -their actions provide ample fuel and justification for groups and organisations which really ARE antisemitic. I hope that makes you happy.

[bitofcheese]

countries

[bitofcheese]

saski - genuine question, why do you think it would appear that the palestinians remain such a poor county in that they appear to not receive any financial help from any of the many wealthy surrounding arab counties? i have often wondered this

[Saski]

Breadandbutterfly I think you're pretty rude. I haven't said anything to antagonize you at all, and you're just resorting to the same old lazy criticism: I'm "anti-semitic". Of course. Can you please say why you think this? Because I'm critical of Israel? I'm curious, do you feel that there are people who are critical of Israel who are not anti-Semitic?
It's too much for me to have to swallow, this bit about how Palestinians cheer when Israelis die, and when Americans die, etc. Look guys, this is the face of radicalism - and it's a direct result of the occupation. People hate the Israelis. People hate the Americans. They're an occupying force and their enabler, respectively. Don't you think I could find an Israeli who has cheered when a Palestinian has died? Don't you think I could find several? That's all pretty subjective, isn't it? You know what isn't subjective? The legality of the settlements AND the death toll. Which side has more fatalities?
Let me make an analogy, the Native American. Twice as many died at the hands of the Americans as Jews at the hands of the Nazis. If the Americans wanted desperately to right this wrong and decided to give them let's say - Holland - how do you think this would play out in Holland? Would this mightily piss off the people of Holland and lead to all forms of violence, and wouldn't you say that they were justified in retaliating?
I'm not so quick to say that you're anti-Arab, but I'm wondering why you think it's OK to take their land.

[donnie]

breadandbutterfly; I am also awaiting answers to questions I posed earlier which I see you dodged. I realise you don't want to though so don't worry. It is very difficult to justify and validate zionism isn't it? It's hard to defend the indefensible and the intrinsically racist.

My position is as follows:

• a return to pre-1967 borders
  

• withdrawal from all 'settlements' - or rather, land-grab
  

• an end to the blockade
  

• an end to night time air strikes and land incursions in to Gaza
  

• an end to deliberate stealing of Palestinian farms and orchards as a byproduct of annexing land and also the wall.
  

• and end to detention of Palestinians - including many teenagers and children - held in detention without any charges/convictions
  

• an end to the systematic starving and humiliation of Palestinians by way of total control of all medical supplies and foodstuffs entering the territories.
  

• Israeli agreement to recognise Palestine as an independent state and support them in their quest for UN recognition and validation of this aim.
  

All of the above would be a start. Now, breadandbutterfly; what would you like to see?

and maybe you can try and answer those questions now - so, what exactly is 'antisemitic' in the criticisms on this thread of the Israeli government?

ps - a little advice: don't lose your head and rant; calling people 'nutters' etc just makes you look like a t**t

[breadandbutterfly]

donnie - still awaiting your solution to the Israel-Palestine situation. You want the settlements issue resolved but clearly that does not = peace, as prior to the settlements there was not peace either. So what do you think will genuinely lead to security and quality of life for BOTH sides?? As clearly you have figured it all out...

[breadandbutterfly]

Quite - the same people who celebrate in the streets in Gaza when innocent Israeli civilians are killed were celebrating in the streets when innocent Ameican civilians were killed on 9/11. Does everyone think that is fine? Imagine if you had shots of Israelis cheering, partying in the streets every time a Palestinian child dies - there would be international condemnation. But the reverse routinely happens and the silence is deafening.

Sick.

[Bessie123]

Does nobody think it's relevant that Israel was attacked in 1967 and 'occupied territories' were strategically important sites? If you don't want a country to take strategic areas, don't attack the country.

Hamas uses its civilians as human shields. Israel tries to avoid hurting children and Hamas actually targets them. There are celebrations in Gaza when Israeli children are killed - disgusting.

[donnie]

What did you feel was gratuitous bandbfly? Which comments were undeserved? Are you having a bit of trouble defending land policy?

[breadandbutterfly]

And thanks for proving so beautifully that there are intolerant nutters on both sides of the debate. :)

[breadandbutterfly]

"I see you are happy to use the term 'settlement' though" - er...I was quoting Saski, who seemed keen on harping on the topic. As are you.

Strangely, you have no solutions to the Israel-Palestine situation. Nor does Saski, apparently. Whatever happens with the settlements or whatever word you find less offensive , peace is unlikely to break out just like that. As rather more insightful posts above, explained, the history of the conflict predates 1967 let alone recent settlements by a very long way.

Still, you've done a nice bit of gratuitous Israel-bashing, so I daresay you feel you've had a good day. :)

[donnie]

Oh the tired old 'antisemitic' rant again. How very predictable and disingenuous. Yes I see you are happy to use the term 'settlement' though.
Does calling the Israeli govt 'land thieves' or 'colonialists' make one an antisemite in your view?

[breadandbutterfly]

Anti-semitic is generally taken to mean anti-Jewish, as any dictionary will tell you - although you are correct that it could be used to refer to all those of semitic origins and hence includes those of Arabic etc background too. However, in common usage (and dictionary definition) that is not how it is used, as I'm sure you don't need me to tell you.It does, however, link nicely to the facct that Jews and Moslems are very close ethnically and religiously and have far more in common than what divides them.

Re the Israeli 'lobby' - if what you are saying is that it has some impact on providing aid for Israel, well yes, I would hope so it would be rather a waste of time for those involved. A bit of a pointless truism. I daresay the turkey farmers loby provides aid for turkey farmers, too. And...?

Your solution is no solution - it solves the problem of the settlements but not of the overall conflict which of course predates the settlements. How do you propose both sides reach an amicable and long term peace? Please tell as you are clearly cut out to be a world leader - unlike all those other fools in charge of world politics over the last century or so who were sadly lacking in your foresight.

[Saski]

You're just willfully misreading my posts.
I said the Israeli lobby at least party contributes to military aid, and you accuse me of spinning conspiracy theories?
And, you don't like the way the thread is going for Israel so you throw Syria into the mix to see if it will stick. It's a non-sequitur.
My solution? Israel withdrawing from it's illegal settlements. I note that you have said nothing about Israel's illegal settlements, just random things about Syria and the Christian right (which you are correct about, but again, it was completely besides the point) and me being anti-Semitic (you do know that you should probably say anti-Jewish or anti-Israeli, though, as Semites include people who are not Jewish?).
I'll just wait for you to not respond to any point I make in my post.

[breadandbutterfly]

Re the American-Israel lobby, Saski, there are lobbies for all sorts of things, turkey breeders and oil traders and you name it, there is a lobby for it. The American-Israel lobby does indeed, obviously,lobby for Israel. What I seriously question is your assumption that it is supremely powerful or indeed the main driver of American foreign policy that you seem to blithely assume it is. As far as I am aware, there are only a few million Jewish voters in the US - pretty small fry. US foreign policy towards Israrl, as far as I am aware, owes a lot more to the views of the Christian right than they do to some sort of cosy Jewish conspiracy, which is what your post implied, whether you now try to deny it or not.

I call anti-semitism when I see it, thanks. If you don't want to be accused of it, then don't be so blatant about it.

[breadandbutterfly]

I am not sure why you are interested in knowing my thoughts - I'm not Israeli, don't vote there and my opinions on settlements are about as relevant as yours.

Do I support everything Israel does? No. Do I support Israel's right to self-defence, yes, I do. I would like a solution to the conflict that sees both sides living meaningful lives in harmony. Do I think it's easy to get to that point? No, sadly not.

Whilst we're discussing our (irrelevant) opinions, as opposed to historical facts, none of us being directly involved, please tell me your solutions for the Middle East, donnie and Saski, as you have apparently got it sussed.

Well done you.

And not clear why Syria is 'irrelevant' - why are tens of thousands of innocent people being murdered 'irrelevant'?

[Saski]

Well, it didn't take you long to drop your anti-Semitic marker into the thread. Well done you.
What do you suppose the remit of the American-Israeli lobby is, then? I'm really interested in knowing your thoughts.
Interesting how you completely sidestep the illegal settlements and throw in a non-sequitur (Syria). People are absolutely outraged over what's going on in Syria. It doesn't excuse Israel.

[donnie]

Oh dear breadandbutterfly. Bit angry are you? Do you not like this thread?
Tell me, what is your considered opinion regarding sustained and deliberate land theft by the Israelis of Palestinian land? Or should I use the word 'settlements' ? Is that word a little bit nicer? A little more palatable perhaps.