Another mother abducting her 4 children

[SkippyYourFriendEverTrue]

There's another thread about the Australian woman abducting her children from Italy.

This one involves four children being abducted in similar circumstances but this time between Spain and Wales:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19974604
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2218594/Jennifer-Jones-High-Court-judge-orders-nationwide-hunt-missing-children-centre-custody-battle.html

The second time she has done this apparently.

[MayTheOddsBeEverInYourFavour]

Juggling do you believe a father can abduct his own children?

[meditrina]

If the British courts did not uphold a residency order made in a country that is an EU partner and a Hague Convention signatory, then what hope would there be for ever getting back children whose legal residency was with the UK-based parent (mother or father) who had been taken overseas? For if the destination country's courts are going to be considered as having primacy (as some posters here appear to want), it's going to encourage more absconding and lead to a great deal more heartbreak.

The parents have to deal with this one through the Spanish courts. And yes, with two abscondings, the chances of her being permitted to leave Spain with the children again are sharply reduced.

[EldritchCleavage]

Either parent can 'abduct' their own children if they take them off into hiding away from the primary carer and in defiance of a court order.

[JugglingWithPossibilities]

Probably yes !
OK - I'm sexist on this !

I once knew a mother whose children were abducted by the father to South America

I just think where the mother has been the primary carer it is harsh to ever use the word "abduction" about her actions.

I think it probably can be a harsh word to use of a father too.

I'm aware I'm speaking as a mother on this.

[EldritchCleavage]

And the mother may well have been desperate, but how exactly where the children helped by a chaotic plan to flee that was doomed to fail? I wonder what these last hours have been like for them-pretty hideous and highly emotionally charged I should think. Since it was so pointless, they would have been better served by an orderly calm return with their mother to Spain and close contact with her from then on.

[JugglingWithPossibilities]

Yes, I'm sure that's very true Eldritch

[Snorbs]

I just think where the mother has been the primary carer it is harsh to ever use the word "abduction" about her actions.

The woman in this instance clearly isn't the primary carer.

[baw70]

I don't usually post, but having seen his thread, feel it only fair to explain that I personally know the mother being spoken of. Whilst I would not wish to reveal any details, as it is not my place to do so, I can state quite definitely, that the newspapers are not giving the full story. The Mum in question has gone through hell and had a very good reason for returning to Wales. She is absolutely distraught and has never wanted anything but the best for her children. I know that I may have had the same view as others on here had I just read the newspaper or watched the news, but there really is so much more to this case than has been reported.

[edam]

baw - she has my sympathy. Sounds like an horrendous situation and very distressing for her and the children.

[RoseWei]

Oh baw - I hope the mother is up before an empathetic judge - one who will understand what an all round distressing situation this is and one who will make wise decisions.

Hope, too, her 'hell' stops and she and the kids' dad can resolve this for their sakes (court stuff is debilitating) and of course that of their children.

I can easily believe that the papers aren't giving us the true situation but then I also hope that reporting stops and that the mum and family can work things out for the best for all.

[wellthatsdoneit]

I thought that must be the case baw70.

Her going on the run in contravention of a court order is clearly the action of someone in severe distress.

As far as I understand it the mother in this case is the childrens primary caregiver, and the children have said they don't want to go back to Spain. In most cases the Hague convention does not consider the children's welfare, only where their country of habitual residence is. I think the original purpose of the Hague convention (which was to protect the children's welfare) has been lost in its application since the concept of it originated.

There are many primary caregivers 'trapped' in other countries away from family, friends, and much needed support because, sometimes, the Hague convention is abused. On solicitor I spoke to said in 90% of his cases, the Hague convention was being used as a means of continued domestic oppression.

[baw70]

Thank you to those who have replied. It really is a mess and of course it would be far better for the children if it could be resolved amicably, but sadly I don't think that will happen.

[SkippyYourFriendEverTrue]

The DM has letters etc. from the children saying why they don't want to be with the father.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2219309/Jennifer-Jones-The-letters-love-tug-children-went-run-mother-begging-to-dad.html

The letter does read like their mother, or someone, has asked her to come up write an essay on the subject of why she shouldn't go to Spain, and then a list of punishments meted out by Dad at any point in the past:

"I do not want to go to Spain because I don't want to."

"I remember around spring Eva had to count up to 60 following exactly at the same time as the seconds of the clock as she was counting she either did it too fast or too slow so when she did it wrong he smacked her on her bum, made her cry and made her start again she did it at least 5 times."

(etc.)

Doesn't really look like grounds for child abduction tbh.

[HongKongPhooy]

and i would always believe any woman or child who claimed they had been abused

[BoneyBackJefferson]

Isn't there a 16 year old daughter as well?

[janey68]

How depressing to see sexism alive and kicking.

[Snorbs]

Really HongKongPhooey? Then thank duck you weren't the social worker in charge of my DC's case.

Because if you were then you would have condemned my two lovely children to a hellish life with their alcoholic, abusive and false accusation-loving mother rather than the happy, stable and loving life they have with me.

Luckily, the social worker was more interested in finding out the truth than in operating on prejudice.

[janey68]

Totally agree snorbs

Some men are abusive manipulative liars. Fact.
Some women are abusive manipulative liars. Fact.

I too am more interested in judging a person on their own merits rather than simply taking a fixed stance on the basis of prejudice- whether that be sexism, racism or any other form of bigotry.

As for complaining about sexist courts while proudly proclaiming sexist principles oneself... Oh the irony!!

[HongKongPhooy]

i would not obstinately believe/defend them

but as a first response, definitely

and with limited info available on this case, also definitely inclined to believe mother/children

[HongKongPhooy]

Some men are abusive manipulative liars. Fact.
Some women are abusive manipulative liars. Fact.

true. true

far far more instances of wives/mothers/children telling the truth about abuse, than there are of them making it up. Lots of instances when they are not believed

[differentnameforthis]

Sorry, but baw is hardly a neutral poster & I would therefore not be inclined to read too much into their posts.

[edam]

There's no need to be hostile. Baw's posts have been entirely reasonable and polite and she's been entirely open about her perspective.

[HongKongPhooy]

how do you know baw isnt neutral?

she didnt say she was the mothers friend- only that she knows her

she i s as likely to be biased against her as towards her, from the information she has given

[wellthatsdoneit]

Regardless of baw's position, it's not unreasonable to suppose that newspaper reports may not always contain all the pertinent facts is it not?

[differentnameforthis]

Not being hostile at all.