Another mother abducting her 4 children

[SkippyYourFriendEverTrue]

There's another thread about the Australian woman abducting her children from Italy.

This one involves four children being abducted in similar circumstances but this time between Spain and Wales:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19974604
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2218594/Jennifer-Jones-High-Court-judge-orders-nationwide-hunt-missing-children-centre-custody-battle.html

The second time she has done this apparently.

[edam]

Maybe the eldest child is old enough to make their own mind up. Or maybe the eldest child does not experience the same kind of treatment that the other children do. Who knows.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

I curious as to how a "desparate" mother would leave her eldest child with a nasty father.

[JugglingWithPossibilities]

Well yes Snorbs depending on the circumstances I'd agree with you ... but we probably do see things from a slightly different perspective ... As they say - "But that's OK too" !

[Snorbs]

I don't see that I'm particularly sticking up for fathers, I'm just not automatically assuming that a mother is axiomatically the best parent unless proven otherwise.

Or, to put it another way, depending on the circumstances I'm willing to believe that either parent could potentially be the better choice regardless of their sex.

[JugglingWithPossibilities]

No, I did say that "we can try to empathise with those who have had different life experiences too" Snorbs

• It's just it doesn't come quite as naturally to us as empathising with others who have similar lived experiences - which is possibly why you are, quite naturally, sticking up for Fathers here !

[Ohhmydaze]

why is it 'odd' snorbs?

[Snorbs]

Yet I'm a father and the (sole) carer for my children yet I can feel empathy for both mothers and fathers and am able to realise that just because a person has a particular set of X and Y chromosomes it doesn't automatically make them the best parent.

Isn't that odd?

[JugglingWithPossibilities]

My response to your question Snorbs is simply that I'm a mother and the primary carer to our children, I'm probably just seeing things from my own and my DC's perspective, and empathising with other mothers.

As someone said recently on another thread we all tend to use our own experience to help form our view-points (hence term "view-point" ?)

• Though we can try to empathise with those who have had different life experiences too.
  

I can see that family break-up is difficult for everyone including fathers - and of course agree with others on the thread that the more amicably things can be settled the better for everyone including the children - but then all families are different too, and that's not always possible in all situations.

[Snorbs]

I don't have a problem with courts tending to assume that whoever was the primary carer before the breakdown of a relationship should probably continue being the primary carer afterwards. Which, of course, is what courts do indeed tend to do unless there are good reasons why this should not be the case.

But I'd campaign very strongly against any attempt to make mothers automatically the primary carer simply by virtue of their sex. That is without question sex discrimination.

Must be hard for mother's if this is not the case and/or custody or joint custody is not given to them.

How do you think fathers feel? Or are their feelings not as important?

[JugglingWithPossibilities]

Also thinking it isn't necessarily sexist to acknowledge that mother's generally have a very special and primary bond with their own children. I think father's often have a very important and special relationship with their children too, but I suppose I wonder should they have equal rights with the mother ?
If the relationship between the parents breaks down and custody is considered by a court then usually children will continue to be looked after by their primary carer who has often been their mother. Must be hard for mother's if this is not the case and/or custody or joint custody is not given to them.

[EldritchCleavage]

Newspaper reports of court cases are very frequently poor.

I'm quite prepared to believe the mother was desperate and the situation for the children is awful. The mother still did an utterly stupid thing though. She's destroyed her own credibility in the eyes of the courts and handed the father the upper hand. If he really is abusive, she's completely undermined her children's best hope of rescue.

[differentnameforthis]

Not being hostile at all.

[wellthatsdoneit]

Regardless of baw's position, it's not unreasonable to suppose that newspaper reports may not always contain all the pertinent facts is it not?

[HongKongPhooy]

how do you know baw isnt neutral?

she didnt say she was the mothers friend- only that she knows her

she i s as likely to be biased against her as towards her, from the information she has given

[edam]

There's no need to be hostile. Baw's posts have been entirely reasonable and polite and she's been entirely open about her perspective.

[differentnameforthis]

Sorry, but baw is hardly a neutral poster & I would therefore not be inclined to read too much into their posts.

[HongKongPhooy]

Some men are abusive manipulative liars. Fact.
Some women are abusive manipulative liars. Fact.

true. true

far far more instances of wives/mothers/children telling the truth about abuse, than there are of them making it up. Lots of instances when they are not believed

[HongKongPhooy]

i would not obstinately believe/defend them

but as a first response, definitely

and with limited info available on this case, also definitely inclined to believe mother/children

[janey68]

Totally agree snorbs

Some men are abusive manipulative liars. Fact.
Some women are abusive manipulative liars. Fact.

I too am more interested in judging a person on their own merits rather than simply taking a fixed stance on the basis of prejudice- whether that be sexism, racism or any other form of bigotry.

As for complaining about sexist courts while proudly proclaiming sexist principles oneself... Oh the irony!!

[Snorbs]

Really HongKongPhooey? Then thank duck you weren't the social worker in charge of my DC's case.

Because if you were then you would have condemned my two lovely children to a hellish life with their alcoholic, abusive and false accusation-loving mother rather than the happy, stable and loving life they have with me.

Luckily, the social worker was more interested in finding out the truth than in operating on prejudice.

[janey68]

How depressing to see sexism alive and kicking.

[BoneyBackJefferson]

Isn't there a 16 year old daughter as well?

[HongKongPhooy]

and i would always believe any woman or child who claimed they had been abused

[SkippyYourFriendEverTrue]

The DM has letters etc. from the children saying why they don't want to be with the father.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2219309/Jennifer-Jones-The-letters-love-tug-children-went-run-mother-begging-to-dad.html

The letter does read like their mother, or someone, has asked her to come up write an essay on the subject of why she shouldn't go to Spain, and then a list of punishments meted out by Dad at any point in the past:

"I do not want to go to Spain because I don't want to."

"I remember around spring Eva had to count up to 60 following exactly at the same time as the seconds of the clock as she was counting she either did it too fast or too slow so when she did it wrong he smacked her on her bum, made her cry and made her start again she did it at least 5 times."

(etc.)

Doesn't really look like grounds for child abduction tbh.

[baw70]

Thank you to those who have replied. It really is a mess and of course it would be far better for the children if it could be resolved amicably, but sadly I don't think that will happen.