Advantages of Free Schools?

[Teachermumof3]

I caught on the television yesterday (might have been the news/One Show-I can't remember) a list of advantages of Free Schools, one of them being that they don't have to use qualified teachers!

Is this really an advantage-tsk!

The Head of a new free school was being interviewed and was saying that they have small class sizes which is wonderful (I have 34 in my class...) but I want to know what the admissions criteria are! Will they have to take anyone who wants to go there-how do they pick and choose? Will statemented or traveller children or those in care get priority as they do in many state schools or not?

[grumplestilskin]

one other thing that was very odd about that school, was that one of the teachers who was particularly bad for the slobbering and favouring children of 'it' parents and making the rest of us aware that we were also rans, came from my first (normal) primary where she was LOVELY! she was the one on the playground that looked like a child tree, had lots of warmth for everyone. I was most miserable in the year I had her in the free school (the other year I had the head teacher, that was okay, she was too busy flapping around to be unkind). So strange and sad.

[Solopower]

I was just thinking. My siblings and I and our offspring have been to a total of 9 or 10 primary schools in Africa, France, England and Scotland - and they've all been fantastic. Some have been inner-city, some village, some small town; some all white, others almost all black, most an interesting mixture of colours and creeds ... All excellent.

So that gives me fath that whatever scheme the government of the day comes up with, the kids will be OK, as long as there continue to be so many inspired, energetic and imaginative teachers ready to look after them.

In fact I'd say it's the teachers I am more concerned about, as I don't think they will have as many rights in free schools.

And it would be a shame to sacrifice the diversity that exists in most state schools now, because presumably free schools will be less diverse.

[niceguy2]

Grumple. I'm sorry to hear about your experiences and it does sound horrible.

But there are cliques in all walks of life and it sounds to me like the fundamental problem for your school is/was weak management. A strong professional head of the school would never allow cliques to have such undue influence. But then not all schools have good management. It's not like all state schools are currently bastions of good teaching and leadership.

What I'm trying to say really is at every school you will have those who are in/out. Every school will have their share of problems. Yes, Free schools will present different problems not faced before. Personally I am still inclined to see how things pan out rather than jumping to the knee jerk reaction of let's not do anything because the solution isn't perfect.

[meditrina]

I think there's a danger of confusing "free" schools - meaning those with a liberal/alternative approach (someone mentioned Summerhill - which is a fee paying infpdependent school of a very distinct ethos) and a school which is is a Free School under this policy (ie free of LA control). There's nothing to stop that sort of Free School being a very rigid, traditional and authoritarian place.

So I agree with Niceguy2 that we actually have to wait and see what they actually do - and think in practice it will be very hard to generalise.

[chandellina]

meditrina - yes absolutely - they can be military academies or whatever the founders and communities want, they needn't be havens of liberal thinking.

Let's keep in mind that the whole idea is to promote more of a free market or need-based approach. A school with a bunch of random "teachers" with nothing much to recommend them and a weak ethos and curriculum is not going to get much take-up from parents.

i also don't believe that these schools are non-inclusive. it's not just "priviliged" parents who want a good education for their children and to try a different approach. The schools opening in London all seem completely representative.

[grumplestilskin]

To clarify, the school I went to was a free school like the ones starting in a lot of towns at the mo, gov funded but not run, as opposed to a private independant "free spirit" school IYKWIM

of course there are cliquey kids and cliquey parents everywhere, but where a school is RUN by parents there is more risk of it taking over every aspect of the school.They controlled who did the afternoon activities and who didn't so where in other schools you may have horrible cliques at the school gates and taking over fetes etc, that is not as bad as them deciding on what subjects children do and don't get to study based on how much they do or don't like the organiser of said session. I think when it comes to schools, parents are better as parents (or PTA memebers), not judge, jury and executioner.

But yes I am waiting to see how it pans out too, the free school opening near me sounds very academic but I think I'ld rather wait and see how the ideology translates to practice when it's run by people who THINK they can do a better job than normal schools, but have yet to put their money where their mouth is IYKWIM. I was in the guinea pig years at the free school I went to and the reality was very different to the dream IYKWIM (inclusive, non discriminatory etc). The school is still going but at least parents choosing it NOW know what they're getting. But I appreciate that if everyone took that approach none of them would get off the ground.... I do feel justified in not wanting my son to do the guinea pig years though because I've done my time as one

[grumplestilskin]

and I don't think the fact that the one I went to was based on a liberal ideology means the mistakes I encountered only apply to liberal free schools, I think you can transfer the experience to any free school's starting ideology be it academic, strict discipline, sportey... its still people trying to start from scratch and "do better" and re-write the rule books, whatever the ideology the potential pit falls are the same are they not?

[grumplestilskin]

and I'm STILL not anti them just not putting my DC list for my local one at the moment, but I'm glad its happening.

captive markets get cr@p service in my experience, more choice is good!

[maypole1]

doigthebountyeater god willing


If sates schools in those area were up to it they won't attend the free schools



And as for this notion that these schools are stealing the brighter students if the lefties spent the time improving the state of discipline with in their own schools this would not be a issue now.

Parents and students will vote with their feet what this basically comes down to is sour grapes and it shows how little some care about the education of children we cannot save all children that is a fact so they rather all were educated in these sink schools


And whats this oh no qualified teacher thing people keep gaming on about because as i see it we have plenty of qualified teachers in schools and the out comes don't seem to be very good some children can't even read when they leave year 6 so being qualified not always what its cracked up to be

[cory]

Some of the problems encountered in Sweden re Free schools:

some have been set up in areas where there was already provision for local children- so they end up taking pupils from local state school which means state school loses funding so cannot function efficiently- at the same time as free school does not attract enough funding to function efficiently either- the result being two schools struggling where there was previously one functioning perfectly well

some have folded suddenly leaving students without a school, sometimes at a crucial time of their studies

they have proved difficult to police in terms of inclusion- some horrendous facts have recently appeared about one of their faith schools- on paper they paid lipservice to government ideas, but in actual fact the religious nutters running it had no intention of e.g. letting girls be treated equally

[BusterGut]

Let's face it. If a free school has been set up by parents, how many will have any interest in the school when their children have left........ in come CAPITA...ARK.....and we end up with many schools being run by big (and powerful) companies.

I'mm not sure I want that.

[maypole1]

cory again your argument is wrong and not addressing

If a fee school opens and this is already provision in the local school is good local parents will stay put know one in the right mind would move their child to a school that is much worse than the established local school

It just won't happen i put it to you of their is already provision in a area but parents won't send their children wanting instead to fill the free school you must see it means frankly the local school is not up to the mustard


And to be honest that snip it about the religious schools parents have to take some responsibly for their children ware were these children parents if their child were not treated equally we all have the power to remove our child from our school if we dont like the ethos.



Butsergut to be honest I don't give a fig who runs the school as long as my child get a good education because to be frank the councils that are running some schools in some areas are doing a piss poor job really

May of the free schools have been set up by teachers, some by parents whose children are to old or will not be ready for high school for 3/4 years



The issues I think you all have with choice is you know when it comes down to it you know that most of the state schools are shit and if parents are given the choice between grammars, free schools or state comp the state comps will be empty

Its almost like bt you don't want the competition because you know the product you have is not good value for money

[maypole1]

My view only someone who dose not want children to achieve would oppose parents wanting a good education for their child


I actually applied for the West London free school it was 50% lotto and 50% taken from the direct location I managed to go on line apply so as far as I am concerned it was very fair system and looking at the faces on telly on the first day the children were not all white middle class far from it

[Grumpla]

I think that long-term one of the real issues will be teaching standards. Once the gloss has worn off, how are they going to attract and retain decent teachers? Teachers aren't (on the whole) idiots - why would you leave a state school to work in a free school where your employment rights would be practically non-existent, you would (in many cases) be expected to work longer hours, less job security etc... I just don't see that many good teachers doing it. Of course, if they've 'jumped before they were pushed', failed their teacher training course etc, then a free school might be a very attractive option...

[meditrina]

Let's not scaremonger - employment rights apply to all UK workers. Job security will be fine for all competent teachers. The issue of less competent teachers elsewhere in the state system and how underperformance is managed (or not) is a whole new subject.

Each parent can (and should!) find out about the levels of qualification of staff in their school. They can then make an informed choice. Though I agree it's difficult now as Free Schools are brand new and have no track record to judge. But as independent schools have been able to select anyone, qualified or otherwise, to teach and, by and large, produce outcomes with which parents are very happy; any argument that formal qualification for all is a sine qua non is left wanting.

[meditrina]

chandellina: Goid point about military schools. It's just a pity that the need to adhere to the Admissions Code means that this policy cannot be used to set up SCe schools in UK for pad brats (as they would be unable to prioritise military families). A pity, really - a group of schools in garrison areas following the same termly curriculum would go a long way towards mitigating the well documented harm done to children of military families from their frequent moves. And it could have spared some families agonising decisions about boarding.

[maypole1]

Grumpla as if a free school would be allowed to side step employment law no one escapes the human rights act


To be honest it will be more like the good teachers will run towards the free schools and live the sink schools with piss poor teachers
Usually the people bleating have no real idea how free schools work

[Solopower]

Maypole no-one has any idea how free schools will work. For a start, they will all be different. Anyone who rushes to join a school that is just setting up is indeed going to let their children be the ones that are experimented upon. Very public spirited.

[cory]

maypole1 Sat 10-Sep-11 08:29:30
"cory again your argument is wrong and not addressing

If a fee school opens and this is already provision in the local school is good local parents will stay put know one in the right mind would move their child to a school that is much worse than the established local school"

No, but if the free school is though to be of a similar level, some parents will move their children and others will not- leaving both schools undersubscribed, underfunded and underperforming.

Often it is not that clearcut- a new free school may seem right for some parents but not for others.

This is what is happening in Sweden: parents do not agree on which is the better school, so several schools end up short of pupils (rather than the best school getting all the pupils).

There is also a problem with free schools failing to live up to their promises and then folding suddenly leaving children without a school (Gothenburg is currently struggling to find places for hundreds of A-level age students whose free school has suddenly closed).

[grumplestilskin]

cory, surely it is in the areas where schools are very over subscribed, or already failing, that people will be motivated to go to the MASSIVE hassle and commitment to set up a free school?

Would people really be bothered motivated to do all that and push it forward in an area which is well served by state schools and there's enough places and parents are happy?

There is one opening near me. It is an area where a good chunk of people get NONE of their choices of local schools and are asked to go well out of their way, have siblings in different schools etc. The free school cannot really dent uptake in the catchment schools around here. 20 free schools.. then we might have a problem. But there's one and we are short of school places so i don't think it'll do damage!

What I do think is that if teachers are attracted to it because they're frustrated with their lack of autonimy and the beaurocracy in the catchment schools, they will be disseappointed.

[grumplestilskin]

also cory, the free school here will accept applicants who live across many state catchments. its not going to just drain people from the schools who's catchment it is in. It will take a few kids from a lot of catchments. its admission policy is different and people who this school appeals to are willing to travel in to it