To ask pro-choice MNers to email your MPs? <this is not a request to vote on anything>

[EricNorthmansMistressOfPotions]

There is an article here about the proposed amendments to the health and social care bill which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. The assumption is that BPAS and the like have a financial investment in encouraging women to terminate and as such their counselling is biased. The stated goal is to reduce the number of terminations per year by forcing women to delay between seeking and receiving termination, and having to undergo additional counselling (political bias unknown, though easily guessed at) prior to the termination. ND hopes that woman will change their minds during this enforced extended waiting period.

If you think this is a shit idea you can email your MP by clicking this link

This is not a request to vote on anything at all

[bumbleymummy]

"The pro-adoption brigade never know anything about the processes involved in fostering or adoption."

A bit of a sweeping generalisation don't you think? Maybe also along the lines of some of the ones that pro-choicers are objecting to although I don't think anyone is saying that all abortions are due to contraception. Equally silly to think that NONE are though.

[pointythings]

I've signed the petition and emailed my GP. I'm not hopeful though, not with the lot we've currently got in power

[edam]

married, you seem rather confused. In what way is someone who has an abortion 'expecting others to pick up the bills'? If your main concern is the cost to the public purse, surely you can work out that the cost to the NHS of antenatal, maternity, postnatal, childhood and life-long care is far, far more expensive than the cost of an abortion? Let alone the economic cost of resulting mental health issues from being forced to carry an unwanted child.

[Vallhala]

Pointy, as much as your GP may agree with you, she may warn you that she has no political power so won't be able to do much with your email.

:o :o

[Jix]

Have signed. Thank you for giving link.

[flyingspaghettimonster]

I don't understand the problem. I am neither por-choice nor pro-life, I do believe terminations should be available to all, but I also feel many women choose a termination for reasons that are frivolous. I had an abortion a few years ago and was utterly horrified at the number of young women there who were using termination as a form of birth control, who had been there 3,4,5 times before even reaching 20! And were bragging about how fertile they and their partners were. For them, termination was like a badge to show off with pride. It made me sick to my stomach.

For that kind of person, enforcing counseling before the termination might help get it into their selfish, stupid heads that what they are doing is unnecessary when they could just use birth control. For other women, who might be choosing to terminate based on fear or financial situation, a counselor might be able to offer options in a situation where there didn't seem to be any.

I was made to wait two weeks before my abortion anyway, because they refused to do it before 6 weeks as it might not be a safe pregnancy until then. Those two weeks gave me enough time to be sure it was what I needed to do, and even though it was a painful period and I wished I had been allowed to just get it done asap, I do think if I had been given a non-biased counseling session it would have helped. If only to tell somebody, anybody, my feelings and how much I wanted the baby.

I can understand not delaying a late term abortion by enforcing the counseling/wait period, but in the early (pre-10 week) period I would have thought it does no real harm and could do some good.

[A1980]

...which will force women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy.

Let me start by saying that I am not anti abortion but it's easy to lose sight of the fact that "pro-choice" is actaully a misnomer when you consider the law.

"Choice" i.e. "I want an abortion" has no part in it and on its own isn't a legal ground to terminate a pregnancy?

I wonder if people have ever actually read the Abortion Act or understand on what grounds a pregnancy can be legally terminated?

If not, here it the relevant section:

"(a)that the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family; or
(b)that the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman; or
(c)that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated; or
(d)that there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped."

Most people go for an abortion under (a) the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or any existing children of her family.

You must prove a risk of injury to physical or mental health should the pregnancy continue. A doctor can provide undeniable evidence of risk to your physical health if a pregnancy is likely to cause you physical harm.

But if you are going for an abortion on the ground that there is a risk of injury to mental health then it is completely justifiable legally to make it a condition that women to undergo 'independent' counselling before being allowed to choose to terminate a pregnancy. If you look at the wording of the law women have to show their physical or mental health is impaired and what what better way that via counselling to evidence it for grounds of mental health.

[A1980]

Right, but some self-appointed 'counsellor' working for an anti-abortion religious group is not qualified to make pronouncements or diagnoses on a person's mental health.

No of course not and it would have to be an impartial / independant counsellor or psychologist.

[sjuperwolef]

emailed my mp, bloody shocking state of events. after reading on here how long some ppl can be left waiting for their initial appt to then be made to wait even longer is just wrong.

[LineRunner]

Nadine Dorries is a horrible vile politician who represents herself and her vicious cronies.

[iskra]

I have heard that 20% of the women BPAS counsel before abortion choose not to go through with the procedure. Pretty good rates, IMO, if you are concerned about impartiality.

[A1980]

I'm not biased either way, I'm a fence sitter without strong feelings for or against abortion.

But as I'm a lawyer myself I just note that this "pro-choice" thing is a total misnomer. Legally you annot just choose to abort a baby, there has to be a reason. The counselling issue would actually be a a safegurard to comply with the law as most people go for the ground of risk to mental health. Asking them to evidence the risk to their mental health would actually be justifiable.

As for paying for it, well they want the abortion don't they...? And this legislation has actaully been in force since 1967, it is nothing new.

[iskra]

A1980, are you serious - "As for paying for it, well they want the abortion don't they...?"

[pointythings]

valhalla LOL!

I am so at all this that my typing skills have deserted me. And of course I have a great deal more faith in my GP than in my MP.

[Vallhala]

"If you look at the wording of the law women have to show their physical or mental health is impaired and what what better way that via counselling to evidence it for grounds of mental health."



So a quack pro-life/religious counsellor, quite possibly without a degree and years of training/experience in the field of medicine or psychology is a suitable person to make that judgement?

I think not! Willing to be proved wrong though. Can anyone tell me what qualifications and experience these counsellors, present ones and proposed ones, must have before they begin plying their trade? And how long they spend in training before being unleashed upon the public?

[A1980]

No.

I'm only looking at this from a legal standpoint, not my personal feelings.

If you take into account that from the wording of the legislation that has been in force for 44 years, it is actually illegal to have a termination simpl;y becasue you don't want the baby and there is no risk to your physcial or mental health should the pregnancy continue.....

Imposing counselling would actually comply better with the 1967 Abortion Act.

[Vallhala]

Pointy, I have more faith in your GP, whoever she/he may be, than your, mine or any other MP! :o