Failure label for up to 2000 more schools.

[sailaboattvgal]

I cried when I heard this news. :(

NOT only that but the government are going to force schools to prioritize traditional subjects. This country needs young people with superb IT, design and practical skills.

Yes we need more scientists, engineers and nurses, but why make children study subjects that put them off education and are totally mind numbing? We also need more plumbers, electricians, and creative artists who will champion a future for Britain. Labelled schools and people as a failure is IMO extraordinarily backward thinking ?.. and at the same time we will be asked how happy we are!

[bramleyapplepie]

She has ASD and sensory processing disorder so she cannot cope with the noise and chaotic environment of a mainstream school. Even her primary school of 300 pupils led to her having daily meltdowns.

Mainstream teachers are trained to differentiate the curriculum for different abilities, but that didn't help with DD as the whole environment needed to be different.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

bramley out of curiousity if your dd is well ahead academically why does she need a special school do you think? what is the nature of her needs if you don't mind me asking.

[bramleyapplepie]

There has been a huge drop in the number of special school places nationally. We were told there were no places in SN schools in our county as well, but I refused to let DD fail in mainstream and fought hard for her statement to name a special school.

Spent a long time looking up all the schools in nearby counties till I found a private special school which could meet her needs. Our LA refused to name it at first and we had to appeal their decision. A lot of parents just don't know they have the right to do that or just accept what they've been told by the LA, who have a financial interest in keeping children out of special schools.

DD is also academically well ahead of her age group, but at special school the staff:pupil ratio is 1:3 so they are able to modify the curriculum accurately to her needs.

[CardyMow]

amicissima - I have 3 dc, all with wildly differing needs - one with lots of SN/SEN would do much better in SN school, no places so in MS - one that is working on Lvl 5/6 in Y4 and needs a LOT of stretching (that he doesn't get) - and one that is 'average' but has a muscle problem that prevents him from accessing the curriculum due to lack of help in MS. Yet the same primary school, and the same secondary school, is meant to cover their dierse needs? It's not happening BTW.

So I totally agree that the current 'inclusive' system of education doesn't work for everyone with every problem. DD would benefit greatly from there being additional placements in SN school, and it would ease the massive strain/cost of an MS school addressing her problems (she needs 11 hrs a week help, but does not have a statement). DS1 is SO far ahead of his peer group, that his MS primary is finding it impossible to stretch him enough, so he is behaving badly through boredom. DS2 is not getting any help with his physical problems because educationally he is not behind, but if the dc in his class that should be in SN school weren't there, DS2 would get the help he needs.

I think there are a hundred different reasons why inclusion cannot possibly work for everyone either for budget or time constraints, and the system needs to be looked at again.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

amicissima: "The problem is that, as long as we pretend that comprehensive education is basically fine, that 99.9% of teachers are brilliant, that all children would want and be able to learn if enough money was spent and lessons were exciting enough, then we are going to keep failing thousands of children."

but no one has said that at all and it certainly isn't the thrust of my arguments on here so it's a bit disingenuous to quote me and follow it with that.

[cherrysodalover]

it is not the teachers- i worked in schools and it was all about the kind of upbringing the kids had had-it is all about the parenting- always has been and always will be. teachers work harder now than they ever have but there are simply more fires to put out

[grannieonabike]

Really admire school teachers. It can be such a difficult job.

[grannieonabike]

Santa and Loudlass, I've learnt/remembered such a lot from reading your posts.

The German system sounds good, GiddyPickle.

Getting the numbers right is crucial. Small local schools serving mixed communities. Well-organised, individualised provision for kids with SENs. It doesn't sound like a lot to ask.

[cherrysodalover]

it is not the teachers- i worked in schools and it was all about the kind of upbringing the kids had had-it is all about the parenting- always has been and always will be. teachers work harder now than they ever have but there are simply more fires to put out

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

the other thing is that if you expand school populations continuously rather than have more schools you again make teaching less of a career or appeal to people.

one head of department per subject, head of year for each year group, deputy head etc etc in each school. if the school has 1500 pupils it needs a lot of teachers but has very few responsibility roles and therefore career progression and development for those teachers. a lot competing for a few roles.

people have to move on and compete for roles that come up at other schools rather than stay and develop in and with one school. schools in nice areas, schools that can pay good recruitment incentives and offer relocation packages etc are able to attract the staff who want to progress.

it also means a very small body of management is making unilateral decisions for a hell of a lot of professionals which makes the job even more stressful. the most stressful jobs are those in which you have a lot of responsibility and very little control over the conditions of your work. teaching is not the only example of that kind of work but it is a very striking one and as become more and more like that in recent decades.

a model of more, smaller schools would be much better for students and professionals and for retaining good teachers and developing them throughout their career and them therefore feeling more invested in the school they work in.

it obviously is not the cheapest model though so not likely to happen.

sorry - seems i have a lot to say on the problems in education quite a banging head against brick wall area to work in.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

it's been going on for so long loudlass (building houses, expanding populations etc without adding the infrastructure of schools, doctors etc) that schools are already way beyond what they were ever designed to hold. when you see the corridors and stairways between lessons it's blatantly clear that schools are overcrowded even if you've got technically enough classrooms. if a club or sports event crammed them in like that they'd be closed down on health and safety grounds.

kids queue for ages to try and get a school lunch, there's not room in the halls for people to eat their packed lunches in there. there's not space enough to be in when it rains.

if you over populate a rats cage enough don't they lose all social behaviour and start eating each other?

[CardyMow]

What I mean by the fact that the county council haven't taken the pupil numbers of puils already attending primary school that will be Y7 in 2015 is that they have looked at the town as a whole, and decided that there are loads of empty places in that year group on the South side of the town, despite the fact that there is already a massive lack of secondary places on the North side of the town. And the fact that to get from one side of the town to the other requires catching TWO buses each way, to get to school the dc would have to leave the house at 7am, due to crappy bus connections.

All the county council look at for providing transport is distance as the crow flies - so none of these puils will get transport funding, yet what can be a 2.9 mile journey each way as the crow flies can turn into a 6 mile journey each way by 2 buses!

[CardyMow]

santaisananagramofsatan - How did you guess? Our estate in particular has one of the highest density of planned new homes a) in our town b) in our county and c) in the SE of England! Between 2011 and 2015 there are over 3000? new homes planned for our estate! Our doctors surgery is already dealing with twice the amount of patients that the (ONE) doctor is meant to have, the schools are filled to bursting, we got one new primary school last September, we were meant to be getting another one, but no-one at county council seems to be taking the schooling situation seriously enough.

There is a (new) consultation out at the moment due to the town losing the BSF funding, but I don't think that the new plans are going to be effective, as it is basically moving one school from the centre of town to our estate, paid for by turning it into an academy (that no-one would want to send their dc to!), thus taking a school away from the town centre! They are going to close a school on the other side of town as well. And the projections of pupil numbers that county council are using for 2015 don't even include all the dc that are in primary already, let alone all the dc from the new builds...

[bramleyapplepie]

I also agree that there needs to be more special provision for those with SEN. DD has absolutely thrived since we moved her to a special school, but the LA opposed it initially and wanted to keep her in mainstream school.

During her time in mainstream she was so distressed due to ASD and sensory processing disorder that she lashed out at staff and pupils, throwing scissors and attacking teachers. I feel terrible for the pupils who had their education disrupted while the LA refused to fund an appropriate education for her.

At special school she has had a complete turnaround, she is in a class with 1:3 staff ratio and the whole classroom is set up so that her anxieties aren't triggered. It's a private school though, so the placement is expensive and the LA refused to pay until we appealed against it. I know a lot of parents through local support groups whose children continue to be placed inappropriately in mainstream, who aren't educated or articulate enough to manage an appeal, so their children never get the right support.

Of course, everyone suffers in the end as the pupil disrupts the education of others, and never learns the right life skills to become independent which means that they won't contribute to society as adults - many of them end up in the social care system or prison.

[nooka]

We really benefited from having the behavioural unit on site (although I expect it put many parents off as well as lowering the school's score). ds had some borderine SEN and having the extra resources visiting the school anyway meant that the teacher had access to some very good specialist advice (which given how bloody useless the SENCO was was particularly valuable). Plus they used time in the sensory room as one of his rewards for good behaviour (I think he just found school a bit overwhelming). I think that provision beside the mainstream worked really well (in this case at least) less stigma, easy transfer from the school to the unit and back, and it must have been good for families who had children both in mainstream and the unit. I'm not sure what happened at secondary level though - or borough was one of those that liked to think if they didn't make any provision the problem would go away.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

yeah but they'll probably manage to build a load more houses loudlass with no extra schools or doctor's surgeries as part of the planning permission

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

that premium is total tokenism imo loudlass and a way of looking like they're giving something when actually they're probably going to make cuts on SEN alongside it and actually make a saving.

i had a training placement at a school like that in brighton. it was fantastic. the register i got for each class had codes on for SEN and each child's CAT scores. (can be very handy to glance through CAT scores and be able to see who is likely to need literacy support regardless of whether they're sen rated and who will need more analytical extension work) there was an SEN suite full of files and information and resources and an expert coordinator who managed all teaching assistants from there. it had an open door policy so that you as the teacher could pop in and say i'm teaching jo bloggs i see he has problem x which i'm unfamiliar with tbh could you brief me on what i need to be aware of. they would, they had detailed paperwork, action plans and targets etc and ideas and resources.

they also had really good procedures for behaviour and the department i worked within always knew who was teaching what year group and class and where pupils could be repositioned to if they were causing problems and good cooperation within the team and procedures for backing each other up with problem behaviour.

that's how it should be. i've worked in 4 schools and only seen it once. 3 out of 4 schools could not even be sorted enough to have SEN details on the registers at the start of term so you had literally no idea who you were getting or any way to prepare and even once you found out there was no support or info to help you assist that pupil. the ta's just came and sat there and helped with the work but seemed totally without knowledge of the child or any skills in comunicating with or assisting teachers. they just turned up after the lesson started sat there (often chewing gum and chatting when you're talking - wtf???) and left with the child at the end or before.

pathetic.

you can't have inclusion unless you have the structure in place to make it work.

sorry long post again.

[CardyMow]

I ought to add that the catchment area for this one secondary school has between 330-360 children per yr when there's only 270 spaces. THe next 2 closest schools by distance are a) one that is a 30 min bus journey away, that is rated 'unsatisfactory', was meant to be rebuilt under the BSF and now won't be, is well known locally for having an extreme drugs and bullying problem, and the grand total of 31% get 5 grade A-C at GCSE. OR b) The well known 'sink' school on the worst estate in town, that would be 2 40 minute bus journeys away as there's no direct link between the estate I am on and that estate so you have to go into town then out again, it has just been 'rebranded' as an academy, has a police station ON SITE and metal detectors on all entrances, is also rated 'unsatisfactory' and gets the grand total of 27% of its pupils A-C grade at GCSE.

Our area was meant to be getting an extra secondary school through the BSF but now wont be.

Choice? Not bloody likely!

[CardyMow]

santaisananagramofsatan - I totally agree with what you said about separating out those children that either have severe behavioural problems or are very behind and need intensive work. In fact, what you described in your post earlier is exactly what haens at my DD's secondary school. Which hapens to be the 'best' secondary school in the town, despite 'only' having a 'good' rating from Ofsted.

In our whole town, there isn't a single comrehensive that is rated outstanding, only this one is rated 'good', all the others are rated as either 'satisfactory' or 'unsatisfactory'. There isn't much choice here unless your child is a) clever enough to get into the Grammar school, or b) you are rich enough to ay for private school.

So for everyone else that those criteria don't cover, they are fighting over 270 places per year grou at the school my DD goes to. I was 'lucky' in as much as I lived very close to the school (private renting), but I pay through the nose for that. However DD needed it as she needed the extra SEN hel that ONLY this secondary school could/would rovide.

BUT if they start doing this 'upil premium' based on how many are in receipt of free school meals as a measure of how disadvantaged a school is, then this school will have no funding to help in this way, out of a school with 1350 pupils (Y7-Y11), only 110 are on free school meals. Once you work, even for £12k pa, you don't qualify for FSM.

[SantaIsAnAnagramOfSatan]

thank goodness for intelligence and sense. it just doesn't add up in the world of reality, economics and standards.

eradicate choice, go back to local schools for children with a fairer demographic and people focused on pushing for all schools to do well and work together rather than schools competing with each other to be seen to be good so they can be oversubscribed and get to select their pupils at the expense of the next school.

'choice' is a very popular spin word which in most of the situations it is glossily applied to has no real meaning.

[nooka]

If all schools were private then the market analogy would make sense. But they aren't. So long as the tax payer is paying then they want efficiency and value for money as well as quality. Running lots of schools with spare capacity would be very expensive, as the costs for staff, buildings, utilities etc at each school would be the same. So say you set up technical schools, grammar schools, art schools, science schools etc etc and offered choice to each family then you'd need to have an accessible place available at each of those schools, so a lot of wasted capacity.

In a market situation the price would take that into account, or the provider would go bust. Prices in the market are set at what people will pay, not at the cost of the value of the good.

What most parents want is for their local school to provide a good quality education in a setting where their child is happy. A large school should be capable of providing a varied curriculum with a range of options, including for children who are gifted and for those who are struggling (including those who are gifted in some areas and struggling in others). Plenty of countries seem to be able to offer that, I'm not sure why the UK is struggling to quite the extent that t is.