My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Find advice from other parents on our Homeschool forum. You may also find our round up of the best online learning resources useful.

Home ed

Do any of your dc homeschool themselves?

202 replies

Mycatatetherat · 06/06/2019 23:10

My dc are in primary school at the moment but I don't want them to attend high school. They are both very self motivated when learning things that interest them and can be focused and sensible when given a task. I'm wondering would it be too much to expect them to be able to basically school themselves? I'm a self employed single parent and couldn't possibly stop working (although I often work from home) so kind of had it in my head that I could set them tasks and pop in on them every so often. Am I being unrealistic? How much input do other homeschooling parents have?

OP posts:
Report
PlayNtag · 07/06/2019 17:02

I didn't miss what you'd said, I imagined what you just described. And no you don't all need to be teachers in a cooperative. Look up sudbury valley schools staff ratios. Children dont need adults breathing down their necks every hour to make sure they are 'on track'.

LAs vary on what they ask to see and some are actually quite supportive of doing things in a self directed way. Even when diving into one project you can tick off all kinds of subjects if that's what an LA asks for - since their interests aren't naturally arranged into subject silos like at school.

@jennymanara how can you know that you wouldnt have discovered it? Specialising doesnt mean one topic only - their paths are so meandering, deep then shallower, experiences, other people, friends, take them into other areas... I'm not talking about HE in a bubble. See alliance for self directed education description here: www.self-directed.org/sde/

Report
RomanyQueen · 07/06/2019 17:15

Why are people talking about gaining qualifications as being problematic. There is no reason why a home educated person couldn't go into medicine, law, or veterinary science.
Believe it or not Oxbridge wasn't an over consideration for some.
They can do anything they want if they put their mind to it.

Report
Mycatatetherat · 07/06/2019 17:16

@PlayNtag thoughts on what a parent cooperative might look like were for jenny who asked if I'd be setting one up after 3.30 and on weekends. It's really interesting how differing everyone's views are on what constitutes an appropriate education for a child. Surely there are as many ways of learning as there are children in the world! And surely a parent knows their own child and how they learn best just as well as a teacher?

OP posts:
Report
PlayNtag · 07/06/2019 17:56

I totally agree @Mycatatetherat, my comments were meant to be directed at her - but partially to you so apologies if confusing! This is the main reason I find it so wrong that the LAs try to say suitable education without actually defining it...people do need to be able make their own choices for their children. The part of the problem with school at the moment is it tries to be one size fits all. Would love some of the self directed spaces to one day become possible as a state supported thing as they really do work for some children. Check out the cabin if you are starting a coop and like the sound of sde - they have a website describing their vision and guiding principles and started out as a weekly meet.

Report
PlayNtag · 07/06/2019 17:58

Here's the link: www.downatthecabin.com/

Report
PlayNtag · 07/06/2019 17:59

(also just to be clear, think it would be awful if govt/LAs did define suitable education as much like conventional schooling curriculum 😬)

Report
PlayNtag · 07/06/2019 18:06

@RomanyQueen - indeed, I have heard of some home educators getting into the top universities without any official qualifications. There are also many companies who see self directed learning as an advantage.

If the children suddenly want deeper study or need some expertise beyond the parents then they will find out how to get help - with help from their parents at first and then wider community experts and any other sources. Likely with some critical thinking and discussion on sources of information too.

Report
jennymanara · 07/06/2019 18:21

I have just looked at down at the cabin. It is led by a qualified teacher, and has volunteers who have specific qualifications in areas they can teach to the kids. It operates for 10 hours a week. The kids from the photos seem to be young and lots of photos of them playing. This can work very well with young children. This is very different from a parent with no experience in education setting up a co-operative for 5 days a week with the idea of one parent teaching at least 5 kids, probably more, one day a week each.

Down at the cabin is set up by people with a lot of qualifications and experience and seems to be well thought through.
My only worry about it would be safeguarding as there is no mention of this, and paedophiles do target organisations who are naive about safeguarding.

Report
RomanyQueen · 07/06/2019 18:23

Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. My dd was 8 when she asked to be H.ed/leave school early Grin
I did lots of research and knowing my child decided on a mostly autonomous approach.
Being able to do what she wanted to really helped her advance in the right direction, being slow and other learning difficulties was always going to be a barrier to learning at the higher levels of each stage, so she learned to live with this.
The difference now she is in a school studying GCSE she is worrying again about not being good enough.
She struggles to cope with this aspect of school, but apart from this she is thriving.
At home she wouldn't have ended up getting stressed and may have gained better results and taken different subjects. If it wasn't the actual school she attends, I know she'd still be H.ed it does work for many children, in very many different ways.

Report
PlayNtag · 07/06/2019 18:30

@jennymanara But they don't "teach' the kids. They facilitate their learning and they would not say that you need a teaching qualification to be able to do that. What you do need is loads of deschooling and training in non violent communication or similar to enable consent based education. In their particular space they are young but the Sudbury Valley Schools in the US go all the way through. I agree it takes a dedicated bunch of parents to get to that but trying to take the wind out of someone's effort to start something like it is not helpful nor constructive.

Report
jennymanara · 07/06/2019 18:39

Facilitating learning is part of recognised teaching, particularly with play based learning with younger children.

Report
Hairyfairy01 · 07/06/2019 19:26

I have nothing against HE (and I'm not a teacher) but thought I would give a different perspective. My ds went to a small, rural primary and was (is) a bit of a 'geek' or round peg trying to fit in a square hole. I was so worried about secondary. Pictured him as a total target for bullies, friendless and lost in such an environment. However after a bit of research for the right school he went off to secondary (not our catchment one) and has thrived. It's a bigger school than our catchment one which worked to his advantage as it had a wider range of 'types' of kids and lots of clubs at lunchtime to cover all kinds of interests. After a few rocky weeks ds met some fellow chess / science / rubric cube minded friends and has settled in better than I could ever have hoped for. He has some wonderful teachers who are clearly passionate about their subjects and will spend time with my ds looking at his latest collections of fossils, coins, shells etc and listen to all his 'interesting facts'. They truly go above and beyond and as a result for the first time ever he loves school and as learnt thing I have no idea about. He has also discovered he is not unbeatable at chess :-)

Report
PlayNtag · 07/06/2019 20:31

@jennymanara the difference being for sde environments is that the child is trusted to choose rather than the teacher. Play based learning is quite different from actual play as defined by Peter Gray. Especially if you mean the "learning through play" that is set up with particular learning objectives in mind, chosen by the teacher.

Report
jennymanara · 07/06/2019 20:42

I understand play based learning and have organised and run it where children choose what they do themselves. It is nothing new, even though it is now being wrapped up in fancy concepts. The 10 hours will be fine, as decent HE parents will also be backing it up with other activities. But I do think to do well where children are actually stretched requires a lot of planning and except in rare cases, training of the adults involved. The school linked to both the founders have relevant training and qualifications.

I am not against HE at all. I am against HE that is basically different parents teaching groups of other people's kids without any proper training or understanding of what they are really doing. That is very different from a parent HE their child and maybe backing it up with the odd session run by another parent on a subject they know about.

I have noted that you have totally disregarded all my comments about safeguarding. All the research shows that paedophiles target groups that do not take safeguarding seriously. The OP was suggesting a situation of 1 parent alone with at least 5 kids. She may be lucky and everything will be fine, but it will be luck rather than design.

Report
jennymanara · 07/06/2019 20:44

And yes I totally agree that children who do not easily fit in can be totally friendless in small schools or HE groups, but can thrive in large schools. This describes my DH as well who was geeky. He went to a very large secondary school and found other kids like him.

Report
RippleEffects · 07/06/2019 21:03

I loved the idea of homeschooling my eldest two. My eldest has Autism, middle one lacked confidence in school. I've been an involved parent, daughter of a teacher, married to a teacher, I'm degree level educated.

Their lovely little rural school was marked for closure and due to various issues I pulled them out whilst contemplating future options. It was bloomin exhausting. Lesson prep for each child, both self motivated but they needed maybe five minutes input each for a 30- 40 minute session. I needed at least 10 minutes prep for each child for each session. So each 30-40 minutes of education that they were self motivated to get on with, was taking as a minimum 30 minutes of my time. I found myself researching into the night to keep them motivated and getting basics like washing done in the day (I also had a toddler at home) became near impossible. A week in, I felt ragged.

As a parent of children in school, I was able to run through their work with them, discuss anything they'd found challenging, offer a different view to things. As a home educator I found the equivalent school day was all I could cope with, I lost that other opinion and reviewing learning that i could do as a parent with child educated elsewhere.

Ultimately, we moved areas to get the right specialist schooling for our eldest. Our middle child is now flourishing in the same school DH has moved to teaching at. As involved parents we do lots of broadening horizons at home. I'm able to be self employed. It's our families happy medium.

With determination and effort home education can be done very effectively, more so that out stressed out school environment, but it requires dedication and energy that it turns out I didnt have.

I wonder if maybe you could give it a try before jumping in. What about doing two weeks mum school in the school summer holidays just to see how realistic self education is for your dynamic?

Report
BiBabbles · 07/06/2019 21:08

I've home educated my kids for about a decade now, my choice from the start, though one is now in a state school of her choice. My older kids are fairly independent - they go from one task to another without prompting to the point I've had days where I'm ill and barely able to get out of bed and they've just gotten on with it.

With that said, I spend a lot of time setting up my children's education and it's taken years to get into this smooth pattern where they can do that based on the plans I've given them. They each have a printed spreadsheet of their tasks in their folders, sheets all printed in their folder, websites all bookmarked, good resources and tools all at hand. I would never expect them to be entirely "self-learning". There are so many skills needed in place to do that well, especially with access to the internet so needing to self-regulate against more interesting distractions on top of knowing what resources to use, how to use those resources, how to turn what they learn into something that shows their learning, how to keep records so they can see how well they're doing and what they need to work on to improve rather than just doing what comes easily to them (which tends to be more fun, as I tell them, enjoyment often comes from mastery)...it goes on. I currently do most of that for my kids. My Y9 child is almost there - in one subject, using a spreadsheet to keep records based on one online GCSE maths revision website - and his system is based on a video I found on revision techniques I showed him as part of studying study skills. My Y7 child needs a lot of input when she's researching anything new. Sometimes they choose topics that I include, but there are a lot of things it's because they need it even if it is no fun - few kids want to spend weeks doing sex, reproduction, and relationship education with their parents, it was an awkward time all around, but we did and regularly review it (and there is no way I'd send them onto the internet by themselves to do that, I'd rather the awkward and spending time setting up resources for their use than them self learning those topics online without being very very well prepared).

The input I have with my kids this last week discussing what they're learning during and after they do their work, bouncing ideas off of each other, reading works outloud and listening to them doing reading aloud from websites, books, poetry, scripts, or their own work of any of the above (yes, even with my Y9 child - I regret stopping that when he was late primary age, it's very much a skill that can take practice to do well), keeping them on task at times, marking their work for things and giving it back to them to correct and repeating them sometimes more than a few times, working step-by-step through the outline process for writing, pointing out spelling or homonym errors, listening to them play instruments, checking the computer for errors when it messes up. I generally spend from when I get downstairs (my daughters are both larks and get started before I get up) to usually about 12 or 1, though there are rougher days we're at it until nearly 4, mainly at least there for getting input if not actively doing it, Tuesday to Saturday. There are a couple days when I can't be there, but they are few are far between.

Really, my favourite part of home educating is getting into long conversations about things I've assigned for them to read or that we're reading together. We did coffee houses in the 1600s last week for history, and we ended up discussing media literacy, conspiracy theories, government control, sex differences, physical effects of coffee, and so many other things. Leaving them too it I think not only would be a far poorer education as I so often need to give them input before they get overly frustrated and give up, get distracted, or just really off target, but also what would be the point? Even with one child at a state school, we do Saturday mornings as lessons with her of things she misses/I want to make sure she does as well as supporting her do her weekend homework projects, so not even her being at school has stopped a lot of this input. I work around it -- and I'm a heavily structured home educator, I find those that autonomously home educate well tend to put in even more face to face input time to do everything and keep up with their kids' interests.

That's before getting into how social needs increase as a child gets older - and relying on the home educating community to educate your kids is by far the most unrealistic part of this growing plan. I've heard it many times - getting home educators together is like herding cats. We have all the great plans in the world, but I'd say less than 10% ever come to pass and over half of those are one-day events, it's even lower for on-going things. In ten years, I've literally seen 1 regular home ed gathering - out of someone's house where the kids all mess around - that has lasted more than a year and a couple of businesses that do regular HE special days, but it's certainly not the same people every time or home ed parents teaching. Part of home educating is constantly looking for these opportunities and recognizing how easy and fast it is to get isolated. A lot of home-ed focused businesses are collapsing and leaving people in lurch, I can think of four mainstays just in the last year or so even with home ed numbers rising.

If the idea is that all the toxic behaviours or being pushed to toe the line or things most people hate about the social part of schools don't exist in home educating communities, that's really unrealistic. It can be as bad or worse, the main benefit is if it sucks, you can step out of it easier - but then you risk isolation which is a major, major issue, especially among teens. It's a hard age and so many friends from younger move on to others just as friends become developmentally and emotionally so important. Both my secondary age kids have experienced it, and my 9-year-old is starting to as well. The idea that the social relationships and situation now will remain enough to say it's sorted is unrealistic for most. My kids have maybe 1 or 2 friends that they had 5 years ago.

My oldest, who has been home educated from the start is starting college part-time in September - my local one is starting a GCSE programme for home educated kids alongside their vocational courses they've had for few years for school educated - and he's so beyond excited. Honestly, as much as I love home educating most days and as hard as I know it is being in an educational black hole where all the school options look like terrifying shite or new options that seem risky at best, I think the older they get, the harder it is to home educate well with all the growing academic, social, and other needs and they need more learning and doing outside of the home and more input and interactions - if not the hands-on type of the early years - not less. Every which way I look at this plan, I can't see a realistic or desireable outcome, the online schooling options - which the good ones can be a good alternative for part of the education though there have been more than a few scandals here and elsewhere - still need greater input than being described. Some kids do really well in them, but just as many get distracted, get overwhelmed, get behind and flounder, get bored - just like with other schools even if there are fewer of them.

I think expecting a secondary age kid to learn most things from a computer on their own is putting adult thinking and wants onto small shoulders that are not developmentally ready for that and far too much can go wrong that I really do not see the appeal of it beyond trying to find the easiest and most convenient way to do it. Home educating isn't easy or convenient and it shouldn't be an aspiration to make it so when it's such a big responsibility. While I know most are there because of shite schools as most UK home ed kids are pulled out rather than a choice from the start from all the research I've seen, it cannot be the solution by itself to shite schools and toxic environments for teens, that's an unrealistic expectation of what home education - even at its best - can do.

Report
PlayNtag · 07/06/2019 21:21

Nope definitely not a new concept but letting children take responsibility for their learning
journey takes a lot of trust and really is quite radical at the moment. I don't think that just because one of the founders has a teaching qualification, that that makes it necessary to be able to start a space.

What makes you think that the group that would be put together would be a group who don't know what they are doing? I think that a group of parents who want what is best for their children, have a vision of this, agree on the type of community they want and what they will have on offer and talk openly as a group with the children that make up the community so that their voices count, need to be trusted to develop the skills they need and seek help and advice in setting up from groups already running. There are many books, facebook groups and friendly people for this purpose. There are even some of them running workshops for start up projects and conferences that you can attend linking them.

Sorry, I meant to come back to safeguarding - it is quite easy to have a dbs check run for any adults wanting to take part. This is also done in groups where they bring in a facilitator to supplement the parents. I agree that any space wanting to set up as an alternative to school should have the correct safeguarding procedures in place. I think most parents would choose this for their children. I don't know of any spaces that don't.

Report
Aragog · 07/06/2019 21:22

I suppose I haven't given much thought to qualifications, future jobs etc. I don't use any of the qualifications I got at school or even uni.

Surely when you are considering HE for secondary level one of the key thoughts has to be the end goal?

Your children are not you. It doesn't really matter how much you've needed your grades. Times have changed, things have moved on. Many people DO need their qualifications for jobs.
Rather than considering what happened to you talk to your boys - what are their hopes for their futures? You will need to review this regularly, so that you re equipping them for their futures and keeping their options open.

The reality is that to get into almost any employed job these days they will need at least the basic core GCSEs of English and Maths (or an equivalent.) What is they want to go to university and enjoy a student life whilst getting a degree? They will need a string of GCSEs and higher qualifications such as A Levels.

Its even more important if they dont know what they want to do to keep their options open, and keep them working towards a wide breadth of subject areas, and progressing at a similar level to what they'd be at at school - incase things change and they choose to return.

HE can be very beneficial for many children, but it isn't something people should just go into without considering it all fully, and doing some research into what will happen in the future.

Report
Passthecherrycoke · 07/06/2019 21:27

That’s such a great post @Bibabbles thank you for taking the time to write it. Really informative

Report
Namenic · 07/06/2019 22:13

@soontobe60 - yeah, maybe it isn’t education. But 4 worksheets isn’t all he does. Reading, board games, park, supermarket, outings etc. Plenty of kids don’t start school until 7 and kids have been doing without school for a large part of human existence.

Report
Saracen · 07/06/2019 23:04

A common fear relating to autonomous education at secondary level is that young people might foreclose their options by choosing not to go in for qualifications which they might later need. This fear is the product of a rigid school system which offers certain opportunities only at certain ages. What's more, there's an assumption that given a choice, people will opt out of learning, so they must be made to learn while they are still under adult control.

There is some validity to that second point - but only for those who have been subjected to enforced learning. After twelve or more years of being told what to think about and how and when to learn it, many people do get fed up and want no more to do with education. (OP, you may find that your kids need time to adjust after coming out of school. Be patient. In time they will get used to freedom, and will find interesting things to do.)

This is why within the school system it seems desirable to insist that teens acquire as many GCSEs as reasonably possible, in a broad range of subjects, at the exact age of 16. There is little scope to accommodate the fact that for a particular teen, 14 or 18 or 22 may be a better age to do them, or that maybe it would make sense to do some subjects first and others later. The rigid age-segregated system cannot accommodate it, and schools' performance measures conspire against it. Even if the system could address individual needs flexibly, once "Compulsory School Age" is over, young people can no longer be made to comply with adults' goals for them, so in that sense it becomes too late.

None of this is relevant to teens who have the freedom to make their own educational choices. What happens if they don't bother to get GCSEs when they are 16, and then later want them? This is no disaster. At worst it is an inconvenience. They simply do them later, through exactly the same process. There's no issue with being sick of education, because they haven't been coerced to learn when they didn't want it. For example, I've never heard an autonomously educated person say they hate maths. Why would anyone hate maths, unless they've been subjected to it against their will, and taught ineffectively? (Nobody hates music, do they; have you ever wondered why not? See above for a clue.) Some will have more interest in the subject than others, and some will have learned more about the subject than others, but they remain open to the idea of acquiring more education and more qualifications as and when that seems desirable.

Not gets a driving licence at the earliest opportunity, though there's a good chance they'll later want or need it. Why do we trust teens to postpone that qualification, while requiring them to pass GCSEs at 16? This odd sense of urgency and the catastrophizing around educational outcomes are an artefact of the school system.

My eldest is interested in most subjects, In recent years she concentrated on art, music, and sports coaching. Alongside that she worked at various jobs from an early age and did all sorts of voluntary work. She didn't rule out the possibility of GCSEs, but decided not to do them at 16, intending to go straight into full-time work. Now she thinks she may go down the higher education route after all, and is doing a Level 3 arts qualification in parallel with English and maths GCSEs. She's 19. Detours and changes of plan are par for the course. It really is not a big deal.

Report

Don’t want to miss threads like this?

Weekly

Sign up to our weekly round up and get all the best threads sent straight to your inbox!

Log in to update your newsletter preferences.

You've subscribed!

Namenic · 07/06/2019 23:20

@saracen - great to hear about different paths! Sometimes it is hard to imagine anything different. Is it slightly more expensive overall ?(eg - because didn’t do gcses can’t get a higher paying job, have to study for gcses/a levels and work at the same time). Still - better than picking the wrong course at uni/FE and having a lot of debt. V hard choices for young people nowadays

Report
Saracen · 08/06/2019 00:28

You mean, is it more expensive overall to do GCSEs later rather than earlier? Beats me. I don't think there's any way of knowing that, as there are so very many factors! For example:

When she was younger, instead of GCSEs she was doing other things, such as paid work. That might look better on her CV than a handful of GCSEs, and therefore help her to a better job. Or maybe the opposite. I guess it depends on the employer, and on the job, as to whether they value hands-on experience over qualifications.

If she'd done GCSEs earlier, she probably would have done more of them, because she wouldn't have known how many she might need for the various possible careers or uni courses she might do.

If she'd done GCSEs earlier, she'd have found them more difficult, so she might have needed more help, and we might have paid for that.

If she'd done them earlier and got stuck in to a career earlier than she would have been working her way up the salary scale from an earlier age, which means more money in the long run. Of course, that presupposes that she would have figured out what she wanted to do and would have chosen a career early on!

We can only claim Tax Credits and Child Benefit for her as a young person in non-advanced full-time education while she is under 20, and for the times when she has worked less than 24 hours a week. Next year when she's over 20 and likely not working many hours or bringing in much money, we'll be subsidising her.

It all makes your head spin, doesn't it?! Of course, if I'd wanted to minimise expenditure, I wouldn't have had kids in the first place!

Report
drspouse · 09/06/2019 11:10

*I've never heard an autonomously educated person say they hate maths.!
My DN did. Though my DB's teaching may have had a lot to do with it, she'd already decided she couldn't do it (partly due to my DB being very good at it and giving up when his much too high level explanation didn't work).
She is generally quite game and was willing to give it a go but being taught by my DB was worse than the (by all accounts not great) school.

Report
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.