alterntive to phonics for literacy???...

[becaroo]

....its me again!

As you all know ds1 is struggling with reading. He had no confidence due to school and his experiences there and has never really "got" phonics although we have tried 3 different schemes.

Anyway, I read Liz Waterlands book "an apprenticeship guide to reading" and saw the sense of it, but doubted it would work for ds1 as he HATES reading now.

Yesterday we were looking at his atlas (trying to find the Scilly Isles) and when we looked at london he saw the word "Thames" and said
"That says Thomas mummy" (his name)
Well, it didnt but obviously thames is very simialr in pattern to thomas and it got me thinking....

What if ds1 needs to learn the shape of words and not phonics?? How do I go about it? At the moment I am reading to him when he asks me too and when he watches his dvds I put the subtitles on. Can I do anymore or do I need to just leave him to "get it"??

Had his eyes tested this morning and he has been prescribed reading glasses as he is slightly long sighted (but has almost 20/20 vision) and his 3d vision is at adult level.

Was a bit of an epiphany for me, tbh. I knew phonics wasnt working for him (I have known since reception when he just couldnt grasp jolly phonics!) but of course that is all schools teach now and kids who dont get phonics are left behind and labelled

Any (more!) advice/experiences gratefully received x

[becaroo]

Ah!!! algebra scares me

ds1 and I are now really hoping that ds2 wants to be HE too

[AlgebraRocksMySocks]

yep you just have to keep reminding yourself of that! :)

(it's MathsMadMummy BTW, I got bored and fancied a namechange!)

[becaroo]

Thanks algebra He is such a great kid. He deserves good friends. Have been genuinely shocked at the social dumping we have had tbh. Oh well, as you say, not worth knowing.

[AlgebraRocksMySocks]

becaroo, in terms of socialising... argh. people are so ridiculous. I know it must be really hard to see but I guess if these other mums are ditching you and DS just because of HE, they really aren't worth knowing. :( hugs to you.

are you able to start a few more clubs with him? all costs money unfortunately but I guess you could search around to find the best deals. how about drama? that'd really get his confidence up. that wildlife group sounds great, there may be a local branch of the young RSPB group too (my friend runs one)

or Badgers - the junior St Johns Ambulance club. I guess there's an overlap with beavers, but it really can create a lifelong group of friends - my friend met her OH there, they stayed friends as they moved up to proper St John stuff and even now that they work FT they still go on duty etc.

in any case I'm guessing another club that is skills-based could be really good for self-esteem as well as socialising. it'd teach him something new and he would see himself improve but it's not constantly assessed in a school type way.

[julienoshoes]

Interestingly our dd2 is the the one who is MOST interested in words now!
As she learned to read so very late, she applies logic to it and asks why there is a silent 'g' in this word or a silent 'p' in that one.
The other two learned to read whilst still in school (although it was still difficult for them, their reading difficulties were not as severe as Dd2's) and just accepted that a word was spelled in that way, without question really.
dd2 though wants to know the language base and root of all words now, need to know she understands better why something is speeled the way it is.

Dd2 is the one who plays word games with her father and does crossword puzzles with him.

She enjoys attending poetry readings and is writing her own poems and songs now.
She bounces into book shops now delighted at the variety of books available!
I remember the look on the shop assistants face when she was approached by a very excited teen asking where she could find all of the classics!

I seriously recommend backing off until he is reading, but encouraging a love of the written word by reading to him whenever he wants to, by playing stories as you drive along, using the Calibre library (it's completely free for young dyslexics) and just reading every word when he asks you too.
DD2 says it was only when she stopped being so afraid she was going to be asked to do something she knew was impossible, that she could begin to relax again.

For our dd2, MSN was the big break through.
on MSN (or Facebook chat I suppose now) aged about 14, she was comfortable to have a go at spelling words because if she made a mistake, people would think she was using text speak, or mis typing.
And she was very motivated to read what her friends were typing-so that all came together at the right time.

Watching her the first time she really got her head stuck in a book was the biggest thrill, I can't begin to tell you.

and when she told me about her predicted grades for the end of her course, I had to stop the car as I couldn't see through the tears! We sat and cried tears of happiness all over each other!

[becaroo]

julie I have done that by accident before now!! my dc were very amused by my efforts to speak dutch!!

SDeuchars You werent hard on me. you told me the truth. Slowly, slowly, all the stuff you, and julie and ommm have said to me over the months is sinking in.

I suppose one of the problems is that, not only do I feel isolated within my family (school is normal, therefore I and my ds1 are not) I have also lost friendships that I thought were strong. In particular, since I told people ds1 would not be going to juniors in september - the phone has stopped ringing and invites for ds1 to go and play have dried up. I am sad for him, obviously, but also for me. Ds1 has a best friend from school - or did! - and his mum and I got on well too. She is a TA at the Junior school. she had issues with the nursery and infant school too so was quite supportive initially. However, I have texted twice over the summer hols to try and meet up and have been ignored. I have seen her mum (who lives around the corner from me) and know she has not been on hols or anything. On the one hand, I am very silly to feel this way. I am a grown woman FGS. I am angry on my ds1's behalf though...and her sons. The boys were close so why shouldnt they continue to be?

I have also had some really odd comments from other people I considered friends.....its made me feel very sad and very very lonely. Dh just lets me get on with it. I have asked him to read the books but he wont. He doesnt like reading. He has had the same book on his bedside table for 18 months!!! I try to explain things to him, like autonomous HE but he doesnt really get it.

Ds1 is still not really that confident round people he doesnt know and is not happy to go to many HE groups at the moment and we also have to fit round ds2 (age 23 months). He goes to Beavers, karate twice a week and swimming and enjoys them all. Am hoping that as his confidence grows he will want to do more within the HE community so we can make some contacts/friends.

All he seems to want to do is mathswhizz on the PC (which is fine) and watching his dvds. He watches lots of factual programmes/dvds eg: david attenborough/national geographic but also likes some programmes on cbbc (although that is quite a recent thing).

I read to him, we look up things on the
PC (Thank god for google!!!), he likes to ride his bike, his scooter, but thats really it.

We go to parks, farms etc and my PIL take him out/on trips too. We have been to York and windsor for the weekend recently which he enjoyed. He also went to a HE day at RAF Cosford which he loved. He belongs to a local wildlife watch group for HE kids which meets once a month but the last 3 months we have missed it due to being on hols.

I just dont feel that its enough, you know? Him watching dvds, coming shopping with me, playing outside. Is that really enough?

I feel like I am failing him. I failed him by sending him to school in the first place and here I am failing at HE too. Poor little guy

I am so grateful for all your help/advice. It is very much appreciated x

[bananabrain]

Hi Becaroo,
I agree with what had been said by others about TRYING not to worry and trust that your son will learn in his own time. I wanted to tell you about how my ds is learning, as he also seems to use whole word recognition rather than phonics.
He is 6 (I can't remember how old your ds is) and I'm sure that if he was at school he would be considered "behind" in reading - but I can see he is progressing and working it out. He seems to take some big steps forward, then doesn't seem (to me) to get any further forward for a while, then suddenly I'll realise he can read more than I thought! He is also very resistant to being asked to read / what words say, so I'm sure he would be put off by a more structured approach.
He asks me a lot what words say, which your ds might not do atm because of his dislike of reading, but that might come back once he feels less threatened by it. He also works out words on computer games and in books that he is interested in. He much prefers non fiction books, and while he rarely picks up a story by himself (though he likes them read to him) he will look for ages at picture books of trains/cars/buildings/goodness knows what else and I see him trying to fathem out the captions!
He is also interested in maps/geography/countries/flags and recently the world cup helped him to learn to read lots of country names as we had their flags and names on our wall chart. (Phonetically very difficult words!)
He now enjoys some word games (Readstart - finding words to match a picture / Orchard Games spelling games etc.) but I never push if he doesn't want to play them. (When I first got Readstart I discovered how many words he knew that I didn't realise, I think it was more valuable as reassurance to me than learning for him..)
It is hard when other children of the same age might seem to be ahead but I try to remember that IT ISN'T A RACE and it's more important to me that my ds learns to read in a way that makes sense to him & that keeps his love of/interest in books. Don't be too hard on yourself though... you are doing your best just try to relax!!

[julienoshoes]

all the talk of subtitles has just reminded me of something

It must have been about 2 years ago when dd2 was 15/16 and she stayed over at one of her sisters houses.
By this time she had 'got' reading remember

She woke up very early in the morning and rather disturb everyone, she put on a DVD.
Somehow it came on with subtitles on.
And suddently she realised that she could not read the subtitles.
She burst into tears apparently convinced that somehow she had lost that hard won ability to read overnight!
She says she looked at all the letters and recognised each one, but couldn't put the letters together to make any sounds, nor did she recognise any of the shapes of the words.
DD2 says that is exactly how it used to be!
She felt like the dyslexia was overwhelming her again and she would never be free of it's effects.

Eventually she calmed down enough to realise that possibly she had done something wrong in putting in the DVD. She started all over again and this time spotted the bit where she had to change the settings to English from whatever foreign language it had been set to.

She was so relieved to find she could read that she danced around the room and woke her sisters up!

[SDeuchars]

Becaroo, I'm sorry to have been hard on you. What I said about sitting on hands and biting tongue - that was a hard lesson for me. Although I'd always known I wanted to EHE, it took until DD was about 12 for me to be thinking of it as normal and not to be constantly examining it. For the DC, it is normal and they mostly don't need to examine it, in the same way you don't have to think about breathing. I'm trusting that it will be very much easier with the next generation, LOL.

"It feels hard, and lonely, and difficult and upsetting and it is the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with."

It is indeed. Not helped by the fact that most non-EHEers (i.e. 99% of children and even more adults) do not understand and will tell you that any problems can be solved by you putting him into school. You know that is not true and we are here to help you.

If it would help to have a chat, you can email me at [email protected] and I can give you a phone number.

Although my DD seems to be fine and might look like a "textbook EHE success", that's not how it felt as she was growing. If she'd been in school, she might well have sunk - she is on the spectrum (probably Aspie) and I spent much more time working on social behaviour and skills than on academics.

EHE allowed me to listen to my DC and work with what they needed at any time, rather than what anyone else thought they should be doing. My DS was not happy to leave me even to go to groups until about 8 - again, EHE meant that I could let him lead the way and now he is a very confident but not arrogant young man.

Can you find something else he'd like to do, that does not involve him having to read and write? We concentrated on cooking, building models (still have a Viking village on the wall), playing instruments, making gifts and cards, visiting places, watching DVDs, etc.

[becaroo]

It feels difficult Ommmward

It feels hard, and lonely, and difficult and upsetting and it is the hardest thing I have ever had to deal with

I have now been a home educator - whatever that means! - for 8 months and its been a real eye opener.

I have realised that I have been trying to "teach" ds1 in exactly the same way school did!! Therefore I have made him feel exactly the way school did. i.e: slow and wrong.

I suppose where ds1 is concerned I have never listened to my gut instinct (loong story!!....) which has made life harder for both of us.

I am so scared of doing "it" wrong!!! Dont ask me what "it" is wrt HE...I have no idea!!!

I will do as SDeuchars suggests and leave literacy til he is 9 or til he asks to be taught.

Thank you all again for your posts (and your patience!)

x

[ommmward]

what SDeuchars said. Just back off. :)

:)

My anecdote describes an incident that was entirely child-led. the parent did not even choose the DVD (though I understand they were delighted not to be sitting through an interminable Dora adventure for the millionth time). For you to have similar experiences, you have to show that they exist (by putting subtitles on sometimes as well as sound) and then just shut up and let your son steer. Hugs to you - this is a really difficult road to be on for a year or two!

[SDeuchars]

Nooooo! For me, the operative bit of what ommmward said it that the sound was off and the titles on at the child's request. In other words, the child wanted to do it. The child has sussed that there is a fixed connection between written marks and sounds and that he can solve that puzzle. And he wants to solve the puzzle, so he does, with help.

Unfortunately, Becaroo, you are not in that position. Your son is all too well aware that there is a link but that it is one that he can't make. He is a failure. If you switch off the sound, you'll just prove it to him again.

By "back off", I mean that it must stop being an issue for you. You must stop taking every opportunity to get him to show what he can't do.

I know that the above is strong and feel free to ignore it, but please believe us that the hardest thing about being an EHE parent is keeping your mouth shut and your hands off. You say above that school's attempts to teach have damaged your son. You won't fix him by continuing with the school thing being a big deal for you. Please read JulieNoShoes again - they completely stopped trying to get her DD to read and read everything to her. Your DS needs to build up confidence - he needs to know when he gets up in the morning that reading will never pounce on him and humiliate him, otherwise it will get in the way of him learning anything else (because some part of him will be waiting for today's reading upset).

Can I suggest that you decide that you will do nothing about it unless:

• he asks to be taught to read.
  
• he gets to 9 and still can't read.
  

The point of that is to remove it from your radar as an issue - if you decide not to worry about it for two years, then it will relieve the pressure and you can all forget about it for the time being.

However, what might be fun with DVDs is to have the hearing-impaired subtitles on and see the way that they give indications of sound, not just the main soundtrack. Some of them are very odd.

[becaroo]

Ah. I am using the subtitles but leaving the sound on...is that not the idea? See???? I am clueless!!

[ommmward]

Can I give you a little anecdote about this form of learning?

so, I know an autonomously HEed 6 year old who has never had a formal reading lesson in their life. But recently their mother was watching Toy Story 2 with them, with the sound off and the subtitles on (both at the child's request). And the child kept pausing the DVD to read the subtitles or ask to have them read if the words were too hard. NB always just read something to a child when they ask you to, don't protest that they should be able to do it. For whatever reason, they are asking you to do it.

And the child was doing all the ones in square brackets like [panting] [screaming] [whimpering] by making the correct sounds. That's functional literacy. That child knows what -ing sounds like, and what it means, but they've never had someone sit down and phonicify it to them.

And not a book in sight, far less a reading scheme one.

[becaroo]

julie Wow. She sounds like an amazing young woman. I bet you didnt run around like a headless chicken like I have been doing!!!! I admire you so much. Your dd is very lucky to have had you to facilitate her learning. I hope I can do half as good a job for ds1.

Thanks again x

[becaroo]

Thank you all very much for your posts.

Just got back from a weekend away, hence my tardiness in replying!

SDeuchars Yes, you have said it before, but guess what??? I think I actually believe now and its not that I am a terrible mother or that ds1 has a specific learning disabilty it just that he doesnt get phonics and the school trying to teach him to read via this method (far too young!!) has really damaged him.

Will check out the Ladybird books....I wonder if they are the ones I learnt to read with????

[IndigoBell]

Maizie - I can't waste my money as they will refund me all of my money if DD does not learn to read. However if she doesn't learn to read I will have wasted 5 months during which I could have been doing something better.

The defn of a synthetic phonics program seems to be very slippery. Easyread is based on words being made up of sounds, but it is not based on expressly teaching the child which letters make which sounds. Nor does it teach the sounds in a set order. Nor does it worry about whether words are phonetically regular or not, it doesn't seperate words into those that can be soudned out and other 'tricky' ones. So it certainly doesn't feel like a SP program to me. Kids read normal texts, not text with a limited vocab, right from the begining, which I don't think you usually do on a SP program.

[SDeuchars]

My DD (who has just got into uni) does not get phonics. We talked about it a couple of weeks ago and she'sstill not sure she gets it. She started to read very young (2-3) but (presumably) on the look and say method. I could never ask her to sound things out and I wonder if that is why she reached a plateau at about 5.

OTOH, her brother could spell before he could read. From when he was about 3, if DD asked ffor a spelling, he'd leap in and give it but he didn't start to read in any real sense until 7-8.

Becaroo, I know we've said this before, but I really would back off until it becomes an issue for him. Top Trumps, Bionicle, Pokemon and various other things that will bore you stupid seem to be very motivating for kids (especially boys). :-) Also computer games that involve working out puzzles and codes. My DS would leave messages in Bionicle... It may not look like it, but it involves manipulating symbols without the pressure to do what school wanted.

[maizieD]

IB says:

"2 very diff schemes for dyslexics are EasyRead System and the Davies Method. Neither of them are based around phonics."

Which is very odd as the Easyread scheme does claim on its website to be based on Synthetic Phonics. And, from what I have seen of the exemplar material they have on there it is indeed phonics based, though in a rather tortuous fashion.

As phonics doesn't work for your child, IB, I wouldn't waste your money....

[CecilyP]

I can't really add anything to Julien's inspiring post but have to agree with a previous poster that, if your son really can't do phonics, then the Ladybird reading scheme is a good place to at least get him started on reading. The books introduce new words very gradually and, once introduced, the same words are repeated regularly. This provides a great deal of practice and consolidation. The first book 1A only contains around 12 different words and book 1B contains exactly the same words in different order, and so on through the scheme until book 12B. Although over 40 years old these books are still available in ordinary bookshops. A more modern (though actually not new - it was used in the school my now grown up son attended) scheme that works on the same principle is Ginn 360 although it is not so widely available.

[IndigoBell]

Becaroo - 2 very diff schemes for dyslexics are EasyRead System and the Davies Method. Neither of them are based around phonics.

Davies Method can be done at home for free by reading the gift of dyslexia - or by a consultant. EasyRead costs £700 - but it is an unconditional money back guarantee so if it don't help your kid, just get your money back.

My DD is currently on EasyRead. Too early yet to tell if it will work or not (need to give it about 5 months...) But if it doesn't work I'll get my money back.... I think they would also give you your money back if your child just doesn't like the program.

Also, could have a visual perception problem, like Irlen syndrome. A regular optomotorist won't test for this or notice it.

But I agree, phonics does not work for all kids. And it's pretty much the only thing dyslexia experts recommend - so I avoid them :) and instead are spending my hard earned money on EasyRead and other programs.

[AlgebraRocksMySocks]

WRT the labelling idea - how about a treasure hunt? if you label furniture etc as others suggested, you could make duplicates of the labels and use them as the clues. he would then not actually need to read the words, as he could match them to the labels on the object.

[Tabliope]

julienoshoes - your DD's achievements are amazing. Well done too to all the HE kids that have got their GCSEs, A levels etc recently that have posted here.

[julienoshoes]

My dd2 left school aged nearly 9 completely unable to spell or read even her own name.
We discovered that she had dysphonetic and dyseidetic dyelsexia.
Dysedetic dyslexia is when you have trouble with the shape of the words, dysphonetic is to do with hearing the sounds of words as you know.
She had no word attack skills at all, when she left school. None.
I was told she would need one to one help 24/7 always.

My daughter HATED reading and anything to do with written words. Any sort of attempt at getting her to do anything to do with reading, resulted in an hysterically upset child within minutes.


In the end we stopped making her do any sort of formal work at all. Instead we just concentrated on developing a love of books/the written word. We read to her whenever she wanted to, we never made her 'sound out' the words or try to work them out in anyway. She enjoyed using Calibre listening library, we watched TV/DVDs together and talked and talked and talked.
We attended art galleries/museums/theatres and we talked some more.
We ran with anything that she was interested in, without formalising anything so it all seemd like fun and didn't smack of educational at all.....though of course it was!
Purposeful conversation made up a huge part of our educational provision.
We ran on with her education, whilst waiting for her reading and spelling to catch up when it was ready.

And catch up it did.

Dd2 finally began to 'get' reading aged 13. and then she came on in leaps and bounds. By 15 she had started on an OU starter course, which she passed well, achieving all of the outcomes. That put her at university entrance level aged 16.
She used that course to get into FE college and there she has been tested again for dyslexia.
She still is a little behind with spelling-but that is still wonderful, compared to what she could do previously (and compared to what had been predicted!) She is now an above average reader and she now reads for pleasure! I never thought I would say that about my dd2! She often can't get her head out of a book. And her vocabulary and comprehension scored so high, they told me, they have never had anyone scoring so highly before!

I needed to help with her assignments at first, scribing for her, but she now manages them all by herself. She has a scribe for some of her lessons, where she finds it difficult to listen carefully enough and take notes, but many of the lessons she manages all by herself.

..........and she has been predicated to get straight Distinctions at the end of the course.


When she was given that predication, she was so happy. She says she never ever dreamed that she would be the one others would be teasing for being top of the class!

On the way, she has become an independent person, she travels all over the country by herself, staying with other home ed families and gigging with her band.
She has been active in fighting the proposals last year against home education, happily and confidently talking to Badman and to MPs and Lords.

She has been a member of the Children and Young People's Panel, a small group of young people who talk to Ministers and Civil Servants about policies that affect children and young people.

She confidently mixes with a range of people, plays gigs fronting a band and playing solo, she ran the vocal workshops at a recent festival.


I know the level of achievement she has attained is way above that of her schooled peers, in the remedial group she left behind, and are away above that predicated for her by the experts that we met at the beginning of our home ed journey.

Autonomous education has worked for us, it doesn't mean I have been neglectful of her education-I have invested a lot of time and energy in her education and given up a lot.....but oh boy has it been worth it.

The level she is performing at now, is beyond even my wildest dreams!!

[nickelbabe]

The Ladybird key words reading scheme works on that basis - they start off by intorducing all of the basic 100 words used, one at a time.

then you learn them by memory (because a lot of them don't follow the phonics rules!)

It does sound like he's more word-recognition rather than letter sounds recognition.

i agree with the others to keep showing him words of every day things and work up from there. and if you make it more like a fun game, like ommmm saya, then he'll never even guess he's learning them!