How did people decide what was beautiful (male/female) in the past?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Just that, really. I know about medieval standards of beauty a bit, and I know they had a huge thing for blonde women, liked their men bearded, and so on. But I don't know much about the last 500 years or about whether it's different in different bits of Europe. Obviously I guess it must be once you get outside Europe!

But how did people judge what was attractive in a man or a woman?

I know that people must have varied as much as we do but there must also be things we'd think were completely odd to find sexy, but that were attractive back in the day. I know in about 1375 Chaucer has the Wife of Bath say she's attractive because she has a gap in her teeth.

I also wonder how much people genuinely looked very different in the past and now. Of course we are healthier on the whole and I understand we're a bit bigger than women used to be, but I wonder what else has changed.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

But ... I don't know if it was. I mean, very pale skin has been attractive at various times in the past and you wouldn't look healthy like that. Nor do you look strong if you're wearing a corset and fainting all the time.

But I guess maybe other signifiers of health became more important in those times.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

hester - that is one of his better pictures. IIRC there's a rather pop-eyed version kicking around too.

[KatnipEvergreen]

But ... I don't know if it was. I mean, very pale skin has been attractive at various times in the past and you wouldn't look healthy like that. Nor do you look strong if you're wearing a corset and fainting all the time.

That's just fashion/status/showing that you belong to a certain class. Men were still fancying rosy cheeked maidens with child-bearing hips though.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I can believe they were, but how do you know?

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

It's a good point about the gap between the look you're supposed to aspire to and the look men say they fancy. Like the way we're meant to be willowy models with boyish figures but on the whole men don't have a problem with curves.

[KatnipEvergreen]

Well I don't know for sure. Educated guess with a smattering of historical knowledge. Also to a certain extent, romantic poetry.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

YY, that's true tunip. But that's what makes it so hard to reconstruct, IMO, because people use terminology that acknowledges the current fashion, even if they're actually talking about something we'd describe differently. So you say 'curves' but I don't think it would occur to a medieval person to describe that body shape as 'curvy', because they don't have a high-fashion thing for very thin women. (If that makes any sense).

[Beeyump]

Look at Laura and Almanzo here! What sleeves.

[TunipTheUnconquerable]

mmm yes, excellent point about language, LRD.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Cross posted - sure, but romantic poetry is partly into fetishing the whole 'beauty of nature' thing, so it would be very different from Elizabethans talking about white skin anyway?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Crikey! bee I've never seen that one. Bloody heck. I am suddenly understanding why Marillia in Green Gables didn't want Anne to make herself look a twit with those sleeves.

Laura still looks about 19 there, though, which I am guessing she wasn't.

[crunchyfrog]

Do you think fashions last long enough to have an effect on evolution?

ie, would those deemed attractive have more children?

Just wondering if there have been any general trends.

I noticed in Assembly at the kids' school the other day that the vast majority of the kids had the same hair colour as me - dishwater blonde. The true blonde/ true brunette/ red haired kids stick out a mile. I'm sure there was more variety when I was at school.

[Beeyump]

I'm that Almanzo introduced a moustache, still think he's pretty cute though.

[HesterShaw]

Nice hat Laura.

Laura says a couple of times in the last book that she is pretty, despite knowing that vanity is a deadly sin and all that. I don't see evidence in the pictures. Her eyes look mad and stare-y

[Beeyump]

I thought Laura always went on about how much prettier Mary was?

[HesterShaw]

Yes she did, but wasn't that just because Mary was blonde haired and blue eyed i.e. fitted the ideal?

Have you seen the later photos of the adult Mary?

[AngelaDaviesHair]

Interesting point, crunchfrog. Go on African-American websites and they will chat away about how male slebs in particular won't marry or have children with dark-skinned partners for fear of their children turning out too dark, often with approval. The stigmatisation of darker skin is alive and viciously kicking. That might well have an effect on the African-American population.

[HesterShaw]

She's the one sitting down. Granted the photo quality and the fashions aren't remotely flattering.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I dunno, but I'd like to, crunchy. Some fashions last bloody ages - blonde hair is trendy in loads of time periods.

hester - sadly, I slightly agree, from some of those pictures. They make me realize how much I expect people to smile in photos and of course they don't back then.

tunip - thanks! I'm finding the language issue really difficult to get my head around.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Btw, did people see the Guardian article about the skeleton they found that proved blue eyes happened before light skin (not the other way around, which is what people used to think)? The person writing it commented how textbooks tend to picture prehistoric people as if they're white and they probably werent'.

I thought that was interesting though I imagine it's beyond us to work out what prehistoric people thought about it all!

[HesterShaw]

Was that to let more light in, as people moved northwards?

Apparently there is a mysterious group of people in the Appalachians called Melungeons who have dark skin, almost African dark, and pale eyes. I learned this from Bill Bryson. Anyone know anything about them?

And talking of eyes, apparently Mary Ingalls went blind not because of scarlet fever, but probably as a result of meningitis.

[HesterShaw]

Looking at Google, they're not that mysterious after all. There are lots of articles about them.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Do they let more light in? I didn't know that.

It didn't say in the article why they thought it happened.

That's interesting about the group.

I did know about Mary Ingalls. I think she changed quite a few details.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

[Beeyump]

I have seen the later photos of Mary, yes. Supremely unflattering. Apparently Abraham Lincoln was a Melungeon?!