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Medicine 2024 part 3

85 replies

mumsneedwine · 03/04/2024 18:12

Saw we needed a new thread. Hope revision going well.

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mumsneedwine · 03/04/2024 18:19

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne thank you for that fantastic explanation- think this is what some Unis call kranking (have no idea why). Explains why DD would tell me she got 75% right but 58% counted towards her academic ranking score. Always confused me !

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mumsneedwine · 03/04/2024 18:21

@W0tnow @SuperSue77 @opoponax @Randomactofkindness @Groundhogday2021 @Mumofboys2006 @Notcontent @Hopeful646

Know I've missed loads of people. Sorry, gave v limited tech savvy.

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Notcontent · 03/04/2024 18:30

Thank you @mumsneedwine !

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opoponax · 03/04/2024 18:36

Thank you @mumsneedwine. That's a really interesting explanation about med school marking too. Hope everyone's Easter holiday revision is going well.

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Randomactofkindness · 03/04/2024 19:06

@mumsneedwine thank you! Hope you are enjoying the Easter hols and not spending all your time marking!

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Waferbiscuit · 03/04/2024 20:38

Thank you @mumsneedwine - you've been an absolute legend on this thread!

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mumsneedwine · 03/04/2024 20:42

😊🍷 tonight I am living up to my name. Out with the girlies and on the wine. See you all in the morning. 😫

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Groundhogday2021 · 04/04/2024 00:28

Thank you @mumsneedwine
Hope you had a lovely evening! 😊🍷

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Bimkom · 05/04/2024 13:04

@NoNotHimTheOtherOne I think you description of Angoff is what they call Kranking at Nottingham (maybe it is a slight variation), thank you for articulating it so clearly.

Would you agree though with @Notcontent 's characterisation (which is what started us off on this) as follows:

"one of the most important mindsets to get into in med school ( I say this as a doctor,supervisor of trainees and a mum of a daughter in vet medicine year 4)is that you need to pass every module and move on. If you need 50% get 51%
medicine is full of girls who obsess about their marks and become unhappy and struggle as doctors with their own impossibility high standards. It’s the same degree result for everyone so it might be a good time to gently start those life lessons as it will stand her in good stead"

As mentioned DS seems to have this mindset (pass every module and move on, aim for 51%, and if that means not learning certain parts of the curriculum so as to focus on the other parts so he can get that 51%, so be it) - and it does seem to me to be what the medical school is telling him to do (they did say last year that if one got higher than the average, the student probably wasn't doing enough extra curricular activities). Which is not to say he is not working hard now in order to pass (although he wasn't earlier in the year, or at least not on medicine, but rather on other things such as politics).

But your description of the way medical marking is done does not suggest Notcontent's understanding is accurate at all. It does suggest that people should be concentrating on mastering the right answers to textbook cases before moving on to the more difficult answers to less textbook cases (but that makes sense, indeed better to learn more textbook cases on a wider scale than be able to answer more complex questions on narrower topics). And also that it is not good simply to "pass each module and move on" which carries the connotation of forgetting about that content while one absorbs the next, as it is all cumulative and builds. And if one can manage both the textbook cases and the more complicated less textbook cases, that would seem to be better. 51% (or 41%) is not the ideal and a bit of ambition to get a bit more (rather than being knocked as perfectionism and detrimental) might not be such a bad thing. But D is for doctor (rather than A, B, or C) doesn't convey that message.

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losingtheplot999 · 05/04/2024 19:12

DS2 got an offer from KCL today Astar AA. Good luck to everyone still waiting.

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SuperSue77 · 05/04/2024 19:35

Congrats to @losingtheplot999 's DS2! I love hearing about all these offers.

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WhamFantastic · 05/04/2024 19:36

Well done to your DS losingtheplot

My DS still waiting to hear from KCL and Bristol. Interviews were before Christmas so it seems a very long time ago! Am slightly panicked by all the chat about firming offers!

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Groundhogday2021 · 05/04/2024 19:45

Congrats to your ds @losingtheplot999 🎉

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Notcontent · 05/04/2024 19:47

Well done to your DS @losingtheplot999

@WhamFantastic hope your DS hears soon - the fact that med schools send out offers in batches makes it so stressful. My dd was waiting for ucl before Easter - very stressed as her friend had an offer and then she finally heard - but we know others are still waiting. Best to stay away from TSR!

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NoNotHimTheOtherOne · 08/04/2024 13:16

Sorry @Bimkom - I hadn't picked up the new thread.

No, I don't think anyone who is significantly involved in medical education would routinely encourage students to aim just to scrape a pass. When we're dealing with students who get very anxious about exams, we will sometimes make the point that they only need to pass, not to excel, but this will be done alongside trying to get them to understand the reason why they're at medical school is to learn how to be doctors, not how to pass exams. There are two things students do that hack us off: (i) repeatedly asking "will this be in the exam?" when we try to get them to learn fundamental principles in years 1-3; (ii) skipping clinical placements to spend time doing practice exam questions in years 3-5. No matter how many times we tell them they will learn medicine from patients, not from books/flashcards/question banks, they can't get away from the fear that if they don't do the practice questions they will fail the exams and never get a chance to treat patients.

It's clear there's a major problem with how we assess medical students if they don't believe that actually learning medicine will enable them to pass exams. I can't help feeling the Medical Licensing Assessments (MLA) will make this even worse.

But the key point is that some students who become obsessive about maximising their exam marks are not going to be better doctors as a result, while those who spend as much time as possible on wards, in clinics, etc., almost certainly will be better doctors but won't necessarily have the greatest exam marks. I can think of two of our current final-year students who I know will both make brilliant doctors. One of them will undoubtedly be in the top 10 in the year in terms of exam results; the other will equally certainly be in the bottom half. They will probably follow different career paths but they will both be excellent at what they do, because that's the kind of people they are.

Numbers are always troublesome; not least for medical students, whose general standard of numeracy is shocking. When you say to a member of the public that a medical student can pass their exams with marks of just above 50% they would tend to think this means they only know half of medicine. First, pass marks would only ever be that low in the first couple of years (except in medical schools that use progress testing, where it would be fairly normal to have marks around 50% or lower in year 3 but final-year pass marks are likely to be around 70%). Secondly, there isn't a fixed body of knowledge that they "only" know 50% of: you would have to be a genius to know even 5% of all medical knowledge. It's that they answered just over 50% of questions correctly but some of those are questions we would only expect 30% of students at the next level up to be able to answer. Again, pass marks in final exams are much more likely to be in the upper sixties. Most questions are about common conditions, so everyone should know something about them, but they might be complicated presentations or management plans that have to take into account co-morbidities, allergies, drug interactions, etc. Of course, there are still questions about very rare conditions that are favourites of textbook writers and question-writers (because they are easy to write and only have one possible correct answer). A fifth-year student told me one of their exams had included multiple questions about a condition that is in every textbook but hardly ever seen in practice. This is one of the things that encourages them to do practice questions instead of seeing patients. Someone really needs to go through the question databases and cull a large proportion of the questions about these rare conditions.

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mumsneedwine · 08/04/2024 15:24

My DD saw a patient with a very rare condition on her last rotation. The consultant said he'd only seen 3 cases and was impressed that DD knew about it and its treatment. PassMed came in useful !

She also tells me that she is so grateful that her Uni gave them such a broad knowledge base. Her first week as a doctor was on call, on take. 13 hour shifts. When she tells people that now they look at her in horror.

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Ib1234567 · 08/04/2024 18:09

@mumsneedwine sounds like great univ, Can I ask which one was it ?

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mumsneedwine · 08/04/2024 18:15

@Ib1234567 she was at Notts. But I think all Unis cover the same (massive amount) of knowledge.

She can also tell you lots of things Notts didn't do well so wasn't perfect (but they do seem to have listened to the student gripes and made changes).

3rd rotation of F1 and she sounds like a seasoned NHS worker now. Doesn't even flinch when the keyboard is missing 3 letters and the only seat is the sharps bin.

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Ib1234567 · 08/04/2024 20:24

great, hoping all the best for her.

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Randomactofkindness · 10/04/2024 17:17

Wondering if anyone can help - my DD is trying to decide between Sheffield and Newcastle - she loved both at open day and we are going to the offer holder days but slightly worried about missing out on booking accommodation……..we have found the term dates for Sheffield but not Newcastle - I was surprised they only get 2/3 weeks holiday after Year 2 - is this normal?

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mumsneedwine · 10/04/2024 20:25

@Randomactofkindness both are fantastic courses. Don't worry about accommodation as both guarantee for first years. It comes down to personal preference- coast or hills ? In one place or one year elsewhere ?

But whichever they choose they'll have a blast !!!

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Randomactofkindness · 10/04/2024 20:30

@mumsneedwine thank you - hopefully she’ll get a gut feeling when we visit!

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opoponax · 10/04/2024 20:48

Sheffield is a bit different as they get shorter holidays from year 2 onwards. Newcastle normal holidays after second year, after which it reduces al lot.

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Randomactofkindness · 10/04/2024 20:57

@opoponax thank you - she’s trying to list the pros and cons - I’ve said to flip a coin!

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opoponax · 10/04/2024 21:03

@Randomactofkindness I agree with mumsneedwine that your DD will have a great time at either. Feel free to PM any detailed Newcastle questions.

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