Please talk to me as though I'm 2 - guidance about Cambridge for Maths

[AFingerofFudge]

Hi - I'm completely in the dark about how to go about supporting DS2 who is in the first year of Sixth Form doing Maths, Further Maths, French and Music. He is saying that he would like to do Maths at Cambridge but I have no idea where to start in terms of what he should be doing at the moment to help his chances of getting there.
He goes to a state comprehensive and as the Maths teacher confirmed to me today, no one has gone to Oxbridge to do Maths. Very few have gone to Oxbridge at all. I love his school, some of the departments are excellent, the pastoral care is great, but one of the weaknesses is the maths department.
Purely by chance we have found a maths tutor for DS2 -at his request - to help solidify his learning at school, and because maths is his hobby so he enjoys it, and the tutor mentioned a "step" program.
So today I asked the head of maths this same question I have just asked here, and about step and she said I could find some info if I googled it but they wouldn't be able to do anything "extra" with him. Not that I was asking.
So I would just like to ask, what steps should we be taking now if we're thinking of him applying after the summer?
By the way, we have seen there's a maths open day at Cambridge on the 25th April so will go to that.
Thanks!

[NotVeryChattySchoolMum]

You have been given a lot of good advices already.

Lastly, getting a 2:2 from Trinity College Cambridge in Maths can end up being problematic on the jobs front as so many employers want a 2:1.

That was me. Interview invitations weren't rolling in. I didn't have trouble with Civil Service application process, but I ended up in another job I enjoyed.

Oxbridge maths is quite another league in terms of pace and difficulty of course. I had undiagnosed ADHD at the time and putting in big actual effort on consistent daily basis was a challenge for me and I wasn't genius enough to get away with lack of effort, unlike some people on my course :) However I am in minority - state schooler who got in but didn't get 1st/2:1. For most putting in work without sacrificing other aspects of life pays off.

Then I did Masters at one of the top universities that wasn't Oxbridge and it turned out I could do the subject in sleep. The pace is definitely slower, which can allow time for deeper understanding of Maths and to think beyond homework if you love the subject.

Also I wouldn't sweat too much on college choice unless there are specific interests - every college I saw had great campus life. Inter-collegiate system is what makes Oxbridge and York special.

[WhyOhWine]

In terms of choosing a college, I didn't do maths, but I decided i wanted to a college that satisfied the following:

1. good reputation for my subject (and a reasonable number of students studying it)
2. size - somewhere in the middle size wise (veering more towards smaller than larger)
3. old college, ideally on the backs (i thought that if i was going to Cambridge, i might as well go the whole hog on the tradition side)
4. not too public schooly (relatively)

This enabled me to compose a short list of about 3 which I visited and tried to get input from whoever i could on the feel of the colleges, social mix etc ( this is much easier these days with social media, and also more stats being published re % of state school pupils)

Narrowed it down to one clear favourite and no regrets!
Although i went to a state school in a relatively poor part of the country, my school sent a surprising number of Oxbridge so i was able to get a bit of a feel from the school on colleges based on where past pupils had gone. In addition, they did try to spread the applications around the colleges as they seemed to think this would maximise number of pupils from the school who got accepted, so one of my friends who could not decide between two was pointed by the school in the direction of one because someone else from the school was applying to the other one.

I honestly don't know anyone who regretted the college they ended up in, but i do know one person who was pooled to an all girls college and decided not to take it up. That wont happen to your DS though!

[BubblesBuddy]

I didn’t mean to suggest for one moment he shouldn’t have a go at a top flight course. Nor was I persuading him to do something else! It’s just that being top of your own school or even being pretty good when compared to others doesn’t mean DC can get in when they compete against so many overseas candidates and it’s difficult not to be disappointed if it doesn’t go well and confidence can be dented. So this really means you need to evaluate the other universities carefully so sensible choices can be made for the five slots available.

[AFingerofFudge]

Good point bubbles - for DS2 we just want to support him and help him understand his options wherever he decides to go. He's quite clear in his own mind that he wants to do Maths, just not the where. Academically he is up there but he struggles with common sense stuff and has some sort of difficulties expressing himself and understanding things although we've never gone for a diagnosis on this. He just needs a bit of directing and help thinking out what to look at but it's very much us supporting him to help him make his own decisions.

[TreeClimbingCat]

@Pallando thank you for that.

I only mentioned subject as this is a maths thread. Ds is doing maths and FM for A level. Luckily he absolutely loves maths as he will have to sit the CTMUA!

[BubblesBuddy]

Don’t imagine Oxford maths entrance is easy! I know DC who were best at maths at school (prize winners, olympiad etc) and had tuition for Step but didn’t get past the Oxford entrance test. It stretches DC!

Obviously Warwick is a great option too. I believe they have differing offers regarding DCs Step results. I would not say maths degrees are particularly hard to get into at universities outside the top 5. Don’t forget a lot of DC who take maths A level and FM go into Engineering and Economics. Quite a few gifted mathematicians don’t choose a maths degree. As long as DC doesn’t get hung up on Oxbridge, he would be happy with several alternatives. The main thing is not to feel a failure if rejected.

[Pallando]

@TreeClimbingCat info is here www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/area-links

Not done by subject!

[TreeClimbingCat]

@FabTab please could you point me in the direction as to where can I find information about which colleges support which areas geographically? Ds1 is already on Cambridge HE+ program through his sixth form. We are in West Yorkshire.

Does it matter which subject? He is looking to do compsci.

[AFingerofFudge]

@Pallando thank you for your comments and offer, we'll certainly bear it in mind

[AFingerofFudge]

@OhYouBadBadKitten that will be interesting, ie getting him to explain out loud his thoughts and workings out. So much goes on in his head and he really struggles articulating simple things so he'll struggle explaining his maths thoughts!!

[Pallando]

Also the AMSP run problem solving classes in various places round the country - more details here amsp.org.uk/students/university-admission-tests/step-mat-tmua

[Pallando]

I'll be talking about STEP at the open days, and hanging around in-between so do please ask me anything (also happy to answer questions here or via pm).

Another resource is Stephen Siklos' book which can be downloaded for free. Questions here are a bit older than the STEP support programme, but Stephens perspective on them is very illuminating.

[Pallando]

Hi @AFingerofFudge! I work on the STEP support programme //maths.org/step which has been mentioned above. The "Foundation modules" maths.org/step/assignments are designed to be started after Christmas in year 12 and the idea is that students should work through them weekly.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

That's lovely to hear :) That's exactly the sort of passion he needs.

One thing that will be a useful skill for him to practise will be explaining difficult maths problems out loud. It's a skill that's needed at interviews. He could do this with you - he could pick an interesting looking BMO 1 question and try tackling it out loud while you listen. He doesn't need to actually be able to solve it, just to explain his thoughts as he goes through it. It's not easy to write and think out loud at the same time. Interviews are in December.

[AFingerofFudge]

It's really helpful to get other people's experiences of all of this.
@OhYouBadBadKitten (I "know" you from your fabulous weather threads!) he decided Cambridge only because he'd heard (probably a friend of a friend type situation) that Cambridge has good opportunities for getting involved with music. He sings and plays the piano (classical and ragtime stuff mostly) Of course this may not be the case!
To answer regarding the love of maths; he really loves it, in a kind of it's his hobby type of way! He spends hours and hours doing maths.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

Nuffield Research placements are also a good thing to look at for over the summer.

[OhYouBadBadKitten]

@Pallando can hopefully help with questions about STEP.

In terms of boosting his chances, basically your ds needs to absolutely loves maths and be very very good at it. Things that he does this year should be based around doing things for the love of it.

Just to warn you that the UCAS personal statement is actually really quite short, so he doesn't need loads and loads of different things to put into it. (I'm not sure how much colleges read the ps anyway).

Maths challenges (and subsequent olympiads) are helpful, but by no means essential. One useful aspect about olympiad questions is that they teach you to think for a long period of time about a single question.

If you've got any questions about the course itself, I can see if I can help (dd is a mathmo).

Out of curiosity, why Cambridge and not Oxford?

[Hoghgyni]

OP just for clarity, don't encourage your DS to set his heart on any university above and beyond all others. Applications to top universities for popular degree courses are funny things and students seen as "dead certs" for certain courses can be rejected without explanation from some, but receive offers from others with no rhyme nor reason.

[VirginiaCreeper]

DS got a Cambridge offer for maths. He also went to a failing school who had no staff with STEP experience. He got 4 x A* levels but narrowly missed his STEP grade and went to Warwick where he got a first. Warwick seems to be a favourite for Cambridge maths insurance. He got a lower offer from Durham but preferred the maths course at Warwick.

In hindsight? He would have applied to Oxford. An entrance exam done at the application stage would have given certainty. As it was on A level results day in spite of getting the best results in a huge sixth form college he felt a failure.

[shockthemonkey]

Fudge, just a small technical point which may be useful.

If you're finding it hard to choose his "other four" in time for the 15th October Cambridge cut-off, it is possible to submit his UCAS form initially with just Cambridge down, then add the others later through UCAS Track.

Clear this with his school first if you're considering it, as not all schools allow it.

And of course, make sure the other four are added in plenty of time for the 15th January deadline.

This gives you more time to get to all those open days.

[jayritchie]

Just as a note in case the OP is concerned - no credible candidate for top universities will get 5 rejections for maths. Might well not get a place at Oxbridge, likewise St Andrews (based on the popularity of the university) but Warwick offer pretty much every single candidate almost regardless of estimated grades.

It’s a different matter for people applying for economics where really great candidates can get rejected from all their favoured choices - but maths, like most courses, is not in this category.

[BubblesBuddy]

Hoghgyni: of course students with great GCSEs and the best grades predicted at A level are rejected from Oxbridge and possibly other universities that require STEP. Not to get an offer from “anywhere” sounds like every university applied to was in the top 5. That’s why students shouldn’t do that, however great they might appear to be at their subject. It would be very rare not to get an offer for Maths from a lower ranking university with a host of top grades. There are not enough high grade mathematicians to go round so why would lots be rejected? It doesn’t make sense unless the application strategy was completely wrong.

[AFingerofFudge]

Yes thankfully the tutor we have found is very familiar with A level Maths and Further Maths and writes Maths questions for some A level books and is definitely familiar with STEP.

Have told DS2 about these replies and he is grateful - he will make a list of things to do from the replies.

[Malbecfan]

When DD1 expressed an interest in Cambridge for NatSci, we went over the summer of year 111 & stayed in a Premier Inn on the outskirts. We got the Park & Ride bus into the centre and walked round most of the colleges, just to get a feel for them. DD liked some, hated others. She went on a women into STEM course in June of year 12 at Corpus Christi college which she really enjoyed and applied and was interviewed there, although when her offer came through, it was for a different college.

DD2 also applied and went to the July Open Days in year 12. She had a list of college that she liked the sound of and we plotted a route round them. The one she liked the look of on paper turned out not to be so great, but 2 others she really liked and ended up applying to.

At the end of the day, all the colleges are great. DD1's has a very prestigious choir and although she was an experienced singer, she didn't have the free time to commit to it. The Director of Music in her college suggested that DD audition at the one down the road as they do fewer rehearsals and services; she in now in her 2nd year of singing with them and is going to Italy at Easter on a tour. She rows/coxes for her college and does some cheerleading. Sadly she doesn't have time for orchestra but it's better than she concentrates on her degree than crams in too much. Choir is ticking the music box for now and she is learning loads of new repertoire as well as broadening her circle of friends.

All the advice about open days and Sutton Trust weeks above is brilliant. The master of DD's college is always saying that Cambridge is trying to recruit students from schools that don't send people routinely, so it's worth bearing in mind.

[WorkingItOutAsIGo]

Can I just say your DS sounds like exactly the sort of mathematician oxbridge are after. Good luck!