English at Russell Group Universities

[GinWorksForMe]

DD (Year 12) is thinking of applying for English Literature (or possibly Lit & Lang) for 2021 entry. She has a strong set of GCSE results and is loving English Literature A level, but suffers from anxiety and is worried about interviews.

Has anyone recently applied for English Lit and have any insight into which universities will definitely interview (do any offer without interview for English?) and how best to prepare for interviews? So far she has shortlisted Exeter, York, Nottingham but hasn't visited anywhere yet and is open to all ideas.

Thanks in advance for any help/guidance.

[Piggywaspushed]

It is in education news at the school end at the moment that Ofsted are paying greater heed to student and parental opinion (I note not staff's!). it is causing quite a debate...

[Xenia]

The life chances comment might have been made by me originally in linking to that list of the better universities or those more likely to ensure you can get a better paid job.

It is of course a very interesting issue. i just think if you can go to the best place you can you will then have more choices in life than if you pick a university where it is much easier to get into . However if it is no university at all given how many jobs like you to have a good degree these days or no university at all then of course the lesser regarded institutions have a place too.. I simply want teenagers to know all universities are not regarded as as good as others. Some parents and teenagers don't know that.

[GCAcademic]

I really don't think there's much point responding to that diatribe @TartanMarbled, as you clearly reserve the right to disbelieve anything that doesn't suit your narrative, and would rather impute bad motives to me and trade in insults than engage with the reality of other people's experiences. I'm not playing that game. If you think that grade inflation is not a thing, and that academics don't admit it's happening and feel uneasy about it, there's not really much I can say in response.

[GCAcademic]

Back to the subject of the thread. A lot of places have dropped interviews for humanities degrees now, so it is more likely than not that there won't be one. In terms of choosing between courses, the pp who said that there is significant variation between English BA courses is correct. Take a close look at the course structure, module choices and staff research interests. Some courses will emphasise particular periods (e.g. medieval), whereas the differences between other courses will be modules which are predominantly canonical (i.e. based on specific authors or periods) vs ones more thematic (e.g. postcolonial writing, women's fiction, ecocriticism, etc.). The difference that makes should not be underestimated.

[SarahAndQuack]

But, @xenia, you have no idea which universities are 'good' for English! We've established that.

I get that it's useful to share knowledge on here, but if you genuinely don't know much about something, coming in and saying 'oh, well, in you should do this, this and this' is of limited value. And in this case it begins to look as if you're simply doing it because you want us all to recognise how very informed you are about law careers. Why not start a topic sharing your considerable expertise on the subject? Then you can discuss it to your heart's content, and I'm sure many people will find it really useful, and the rest of us can stick to the subject here.

[Xenia]

Depends what you mean by is good for English. Most English gradutes will not become English teachers or lecture in English at university and therefore my list of universities is their best guide for most careers.

[Piggywaspushed]

For what it is worth , here is the CUG 202 League Table for English :

www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/league-tables/rankings/english

[Piggywaspushed]

2020, obviously not 202!

[SarahAndQuack]

What I mean by 'good for English' is broadly the same as what everyone else with vague knowledge of the topic means. Ie., not the same as 'good for law'.

As we have already pointed out to you, English grads don't always become teachers. Your info about the teachers at your children's school, and your info about good places to go if you want to get into law, might be better on a thread about law, or teaching at your children's school. No?

You do understand that we're trying to explain to you that 'best' isn't synonymous with 'may well get you a high-paid job in an area you aren't remotely interested in'?

[titchy]

The TEF uses excellent metrics of good teaching. This includes student views and attainment. Entirely apt.

Dear God it really doesn't you know. NSS results have fuck all to do with teaching quality, neither does the job held by cohorts 6 months after graduation who started up to 10 years ago.

[titchy]

And student attainment isn't one of the TEF metrics.... not that it also wouldn't be bobbins if it was.

[Xenia]

The piggy list is pretty similar to the best universities for law/ high paid careers list actually so I am happy if people use either of them (with a few ouliers it may be best to avoid if you ave going into a graduate career after that does not require an English degree).

yes, good points about best being not necessairly helping you get a high paid job. The reason I checked the universities of my daughter's school's English department was just to see which ones they went to and it was mostly fairly good ones but not all by any means. It is probably a similar list to any of the better schools too.( better inthe sense of teachers get reasonably high pay and conditions... writing as someone whose mother was a teacher by the way and my chidren's father is so I am not totally ignorant of teaching as a career).

[Piggywaspushed]

piggy list

You'd have kittens if you saw the Guardian league table which has Bolton second and Solent at about 10th! Must admit , even I am a bit about that.

[SarahAndQuack]

I am happy if people use either of them

Yes, but don't you think people should use the best one? You're effectively saying 'it's fine to take second (or third, or ninth) best advice, but do make sure you go for the best university'. That's weird logic.

I think you're making a good point that teaching gets a bad rap and is actually reasonably secure and not badly paid. I do think it's perhaps more stressful and difficult than some careers that are paid more highly, but then that's true of many things.

I doubt, though, that getting a career in teaching would be made impossible if you didn't go to a Russell Group university.

[Piggywaspushed]

That's true : and it definitely does not get you promoted within teaching!

[SarahAndQuack]

Interesting!

I did wonder if it made any difference, because I went to the sort of very old-fashioned girls' school where we were given to understand that Dr So-and-so who was ex-Oxbridge was something of a feather in the school's cap and superior to the other teachers who were merely Mrs.

But then, my school was rotten at preparing us for the outside world and stuck in about 1940, so I did hope it might be an anomaly!

[Piggywaspushed]

Definitely no help at all!
Dr so-and-so probably didn't get paid more!

[MarchingFrogs]

You'd have kittens if you saw the Guardian league table which has Bolton second and Solent at about 10th! Must admit , even I am a bitabout that.

piggy, if you flip 'your' list to rank it by 'student satisfaction', it's possible that your first thought would be as mine -Gosh, who'd have thought the students at St A's (15th) and UCL (20th) were so shallow? - ?

But even ranking it the proper way up, as has been mentioned more than once, all English degrees are not all the same in terms of periods and themes studied, methods of assessment etc. So, it's great to know that 'Durham is top (of this particular list) (this year) for English', but if few of the modules really interest you and / or 50% of the assessment is via group presentation and you suffer from terminal social anxiety, that one almost certainly isn't 'top' for you. This isn't some awful CPD or 'social awareness' course that everyone in the office / on the ward has to go on, one provider, no option. There is no absolute compulsion to go to university at all, even, let alone to choose a particular version of the subject that interests you. English is not Medicine; and even within Medicine there is more than one path to the same destination.

[Piggywaspushed]

Your DD should definitely look at Birmingham OP. It has a very interesting course, especially if she likes Shakespeare. My ex students love it there.

[SarahAndQuack]

Ooh, yes. Birmingham has really good Shakespeare stuff. So does KCL, and Nottingham (IMO).

[Xenia]

Sarah, as most English graduates don't go into English as it were then my list and Piggy's are the best and mine is better because it is more general (albeit the list of where top law firms in London recruit from but applicable to any high paid job). So yes I stand by it.

Howeve rif most students who read English go into English after as it were then going by status of individual department notwithstanding the university institution might make sense if you are sure you will be English all the way.

I have no axe to grind or skin in the game on any of this - in fact the more people who go to the less good universities and less competition for my children.

[SarahAndQuack]

What do you mean 'most English graduates don't go into English'? You mean, it's not a vocational degree?

That doesn't mean it's ok to give inaccurate advice. Your list isn't tailored to English, and it needs to be. We have explained why - English isn't a standardised degree course, and there are big variations in terms of what you study and how it is taught. It really does matter, both in terms of the knowledge and skills you acquire, and in terms of maximising your chances of coming out with a good degree result.

I'm not quite sure what to make of your final comment. Are you bitter about your child driving a van, or something? Because I assure you, even if all of our children go to elite universities, it is still perfectly possible they will be 'competition' in the sense of going into the same job market. My brother, who has a first from one of the universities on your list, is a gardener and spends most of his time driving around in what I imagine is a significantly more clapped-out van than your son's.

It really isn't an issue. And I'm absolutely sure no one gives a flying fuck what degree either of them did when they're asking them to come in on Friday and sort out the job in hand.

[Piggywaspushed]

Also...it matters in terms of enjoyment of the course and, therefore, doing well and maximising success and opportunities. I chose York because of its focus on other literatures (it was actually compulsory to do lit in another language then) and its US content. Many chose it because of its reputation for medieval studies and Art History. Lots choose UEA because of its stellar reputation in Creative Writing. Many choose Birmingham because of Shakespeare and Warwick because of its film course.

[SarahAndQuack]

Yes! It's so important.

I think if you study a subject where you know it's a means to an end, your approach probably is different. But almost no one studies English thinking that an English degree is the only way for them to achieve what they want.

I also had to do lit in a foreign language (not at York) and I thought that was so exciting. In the end I actually borrowed 20% of my degree from the modern and medieval languages degree course, and got to study Dante in the original. It was such a lovely thing to do. I also remember being so delighted I go to do a module on Shakespeare in Performance, which at the time was quite rare, as people were snobby about performance and theatre. We had talks from some quite eminent people in theatre, who were absolutely amazing and (in retrospect) enormously patient with us.

The right degree course can be completely life-changing - the memories and experiences stay with you forever.

[sendsummer]

The right degree course can be completely life-changing - the memories and experiences stay with you forever.
Not disagreeing with this but, as well as course content and university living environment, university status for future employment should be a consideration in choosing. Employers outside academia are n’t interested in what a joy the English course was for a graduate. In fact, as long as the usual generic humanity degree skills have been acquired they may be more impressed by the resilience and stamina of a student who did well in a competitive degree despite not having access to the best lecturers and tutors. Plus of course what they did at university outside their course.
Positive memories of a degree are great but these memories could be outweighed by longer term boredom and frustrations in future employment if course content is the single priority in university choice.