DS wishes he didn’t go to Oxford

[citrusbleach]

DS has just finished his first year at Oxford. He really enjoyed the work he studied, and found it super interesting. He had some problems with bad teaching/pressurising tutors in his first year but he has made friends.

He told me he worked really really hard, but he still only got a 2.1 in his exams.

He’s been looking at his old school
mate’s experiences at other universities like Bristol, Edinburgh etc. His mates have all had much more ‘fun’ than him, clubbing, time for a job, an all round uni experience and have come out with firsts in their first year exams without many hours put in. (Of course no one knows for sure if they are telling the truth!)

But ds has found himself on the cusp of 2nd year wishing he went to a normal university. Where he’d have a “life” and the work wouldn’t be so hard.

[jeanne16]

My DS is at Cambridge and has similar concerns. He has achieved a 2.1 in both 1st and 2nd years which is fine but he has found it tough and has had to work extremely hard. When he meets up with his old school friends, they discuss their 1sts achieved with apparently very little work. They are all at various RG unis.

Also everyone goes on about the short terms at Cambridge. However he had 3 full 8 week terms and only finished by mid June. Other unis seem to have only 2 terms and finish in May.

[Xenia]

I think he'll been fine. Most people don't get firsts anywhere.

Also lots of people who say they don't work do but hide it. or they take risks like one of my sons who seems to be able to work out what the exact amount of effort to put in to get precisely the mark he wants. I have always advised against it but it does seem to work for him. I am waiting to be proved right!

[BasiliskStare]

OK setting myself up for a fall here but in what way is Oxford not normal in the way that e.g. Edinburgh etc isn't - Yes shorter terms , yes prestigious but really is doing a degree at another very good university UCL / LSE / Imperial / Durham - insert other good universities of your choice here ) going to be a walk in the park. ?

The lesson I learned is always beware of those who said they breezed through with no work . Rarely true. I think you can be as clever as you like but to get 1st class results - there has to be some work. Not necessarily 90 hours per week , organisation pays off . & I do think it is a myth that Oxford doesn't let you pursue other interests and a social life whilst getting decent exam results ( I speak of earlier years - I think pretty much any good university the bit leading up to finals will be a bit heads down)

Well - head above parapet - commence the shoot

[BubblesBuddy]

Yoba: mo one with s third these days (do Oxford even award them?) gets anywhere with a decent grad entry scheme these days. In fact a 2:2 from Oxbridge doesn’t cut any ice either! A 2:1 is different and that keeps many doors open. I don’t think anyone has to work 90 hours a week either. I also think if you do, you need to get a life outside studying because your life must be sorely lacking! The OPs DS probably needs to work a bit smarter, prep in the vacations for intern applications and get more on his cv. Hopefully it will be a bit more fun next year.

[goodbyestranger]

Not all people who get Oxford Firsts work 90 hrs a week - that's absurdly prescriptive. I certainly agree that the final degree outcome is only a partial indicator of aptitude but this idea that there has to be an inhuman amount of work or even the smartest undergraduates won't get a First just isn't true. It has so much to do with exam temperament, tactical approach to papers etc etc. Those two elements have far more to do with the final outcome than hours and hours of relentless slog.

[Fishcakey]

Only!!!!!!!!!!!

[openday]

As an Oxford tutor, I find threads like this puzzling. Your DS has sat Prelims. Prelims results fall into three categories: Fail, Pass and Distinction. The vast majority of students get a pass mark. We don't even use terms like 2.1 to talk about these exams. The main purpose of these exams is to verify that the students are making good progress and are on track to begin the FHS or Honours course, which begins properly in the 2nd year. Of course it's nice to receive distinction, but most students don't, and we don't expect them to.

Prelims are a notoriously unreliable predictor of how well students will perform in Finals. Many of my brightest students have received a pass mark for Prelims and gone on to receive Firsts. Conversely, a few have received Distinction in Prelims but then have failed to put in the consistent hard work needed to carry on doing well.

Please reassure your DS that he has nothing to worry about! I know it's easy to become obsessed with marks, especially when you're a high-achieving student, but the Oxford undergraduate course is designed precisely to help students expand their abilities in the first years of the course without fretting too much about marks.

I am keenly interested in my students' finals results (even though those too are only a partial indicator of their aptitude), but I don't give the Prelims results more than a few moments' thought -- unless of course they indicate that the student is struggling in some area of the course.

[ZandathePanda]

In the olden days (when I was at uni!) one or two in each department got firsts. Now it seems a quarter to a third do.

Oxford is ‘worse’ for this than many which may affect how OPs son has a worse perception than us old folks do.
I didn’t realise how much it had gone up.

thetab.com/uk/2019/07/12/the-russell-group-unis-dishing-out-the-most-firsts-this-year-111526

[JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff]

OP in the nicest possible way, your DS needs to get his expectations into line.

He should not be expecting to get a First in his first year at any university.

I teach a traditional humanities subject, but at a post-92, and (depending on the year) about 7-10% of our students will get Firsts.

I.e., for their degree.

In the first year, it's much lower. The marks curve changes as the cohort moves through the three years.

When I was at Oxford, about 15% of my cohort got Firsts. So yeah, to be in the top 15% of an elite university, you're going to need to work.

I also seriously doubt his friends are being entirely honest about their work habits. Like I said, I teach at a post-92, and no student here gets Firsts or even 2.1s if they are slacking. They just can't, given what the assessments require.

[ErrolTheDragon]

The first class degrees go to the top 10% of students and those are the ones who are naturally brainy and choose to immerse themselves in their subject for 90 hours a week just for pleasure.

Generally a good deal more than 10% - but cf 27% firsts nationally.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Oxford and Cambridge award over 30% firsts!!! We certainly don't have anything like that at my top ten RG uni, in the weaker subjects recently we had none one year (for which we got into trouble) and it doesn't go above 20%.

Yours may be an honourable exception to the spate of unjustifiable grade inflation.

www.gov.uk/government/news/universities-told-to-end-grade-inflation

[YobaOljazUwaque]

Employers will regard a 2:1 from Oxford as better than a 1st from a 'normal' uni. I have known someone with a 3rd from Oxford be accepted into a postgrad programme where the normal requirement is a 2:1 degree. He can slack off, have fun, get a 2:2 and still have a decent career without changing University. However, Oxford generally selects those who love their subject so much they would choose to do it for fun. The first class degrees go to the top 10% of students and those are the ones who are naturally brainy and choose to immerse themselves in their subject for 90 hours a week just for pleasure. Most "normal people" at Oxford don't try to compete with that but just do a reasonable amount of work and are satisfied with a 2:1.

[ErrolTheDragon]

you are wrong if you think you would have definitely got a first elsewhere.

While this is absolutely true, the OPs DS is comparing himself against his old school mates, he probably has a reasonably good idea of their relative strengths.

[jellybeanteaparty]

Can he identify the sort of fun he feels he is missing and see if he can add something in next year that may be along those lines ( e.g sport with good social vibe) If he is living somewhere different to first year that may also change things up.

[Nearlyalmost50]

Oxford and Cambridge award over 30% firsts!!! We certainly don't have anything like that at my top ten RG uni, in the weaker subjects recently we had none one year (for which we got into trouble) and it doesn't go above 20%.

Given that our profile of students is still pretty much all A's and A*'s, I think you are wrong if you think you would have definitely got a first elsewhere. I'd also say as a PhD supervisor, that my students with a first from Mediocre Uni are often very very good. They might have not wanted to move away from home, they may have peaked a bit later, but it's not the case that firsts from elsewhere are easy-peasy necessarily.

[ErrolTheDragon]

it is hard to then do all the extras like apply for internships
The 8 week full terms can mean there's more time for that.

[ErrolTheDragon]

It probably helps if they go with a clear-eyed knowledge of the proportions of firsts awarded at the various unis they're applying to versus the calibre of the cohort. My DD was aware from the outset that the probability would be that she might get a 2:1 at Cambridge but likely a first elsewhere. But she wanted the challenge and stimulation of being a smaller fish in a bigger pond.

As to the 8 week terms - that's just 'full term' which is 3/4 of 'whole term'. Sure, they work hard but even within that most find a balance, and it's good to be in a culture where people generally understand that early lectures should take a priority over clubbing - we hear plenty of stories of students being negatively impacted by inconsiderate idiots who seem to have an odd idea of the primary purpose of universities.

OP, it sounds as though your DS is getting much better value for the same amount of tuition fees! What the heck is the point of doing a course that's easy?

[TapasForTwo]

I often think that if DD's BF had achieved his predicted grades at A level and gone to Oxford he would have dropped out by now.

He wouldn't have been able to cope with the pressure. Instead he has partied and drunk himself insensible at the university he went to through clearing and ended up with a 2.2 at the end of the first year.

[BubblesBuddy]

Securing a job isn’t all about hard work at university! Most high achieving students at Durham, Warwick, UCL and Bristol will work hard. Few truly walz in and get a first.

When it comes down to job applications, employers look at more than degree and where it came from. Tests, skills and critical thinking might be required and/or post grad qualifications. Hard work doesn’t mean a DC will interview well either. I think Oxford opens doors but the student has to walk through the door to succeed! Strangely Durham, UCL, and even Bristol grads can do this too!

Also, thousands of DC get 2:1s at Oxford!!! What’s wrong with that? He can still be whatever he wants to be. Use his holidays productively and he’ll have a great cv.

[MollyButton]

I'd suggest he contact his tutor and tells them how he feels. He is not the first student to have doubts during the long vacation.

[Dancingdreamer]

I think Oxbridge is a very different experience to other universities. In my experience most of the people I know who went to Oxbridge recently haven't enjoyed the university experience as much as their friends who went to other Russell Group universities. The pressure of 8 week terms does test the mental health of many students. My DD has certainly found that to secure a first at Oxbridge it is hard to then do all the extras like apply for internships and join lots of career enhancing societies.

My friends' DCs have also found that when it comes to most graduate jobs that those from the Russell Group have ended up with the same types of employers and roles as the Oxbridge grads - which is quite dejecting after all their hard work.

However, my DD feels that the whole Oxbridge experience is worth it in the end.

[IrmaFayLear]

Also you take yourself with you everywhere. (It took me many decades to figure this out!)

Some people will have fun and thrive whatever school/institution/job they are in. Others will always be thinking if only I'd gone there or done this or chosen that life would have been sooooo much better.

On another issue, it does seem that those who are firm believers in "all universities are the same" and say that CVs should have the institution attended blanked out should just take a look at the difference in the work of, say, an English degree at various places. Frankly I couldn't believe how lightweight the English Literature degree was at one Russell Group university (information gleaned from surveying dn's work last year).

[daydreamornot]

Seems almost identical - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/higher_education/3578932-DS-wishes-he-chose-Bristol-over-Oxford.

[OhtheHillsareAlive]

And yes, to the big fish/small pond syndrome. Going from being one of the brightest, to simply one of 1000s of the brightest can be tough if you’re competitive.

Students who derive their self-esteem from being “top” lies out I think. They focus on the marks, rather than the learning and the knowledge they’re acquiring.

Your DS could think about adjusting his outlook to see a 2, 1 as meaning he is on track and doing well, with space and potential ability to improve. As an academic that’s what I mean when I assign a 2,1 mark.

Also “Comparison is the thief of joy”