Facilitating subjects scrapped by Russell Group universities

[Mygoodlygodlingtons]

"Announcing its decision, the Russell Group, which is made up of 24 universities, said the list of preferred A-levels had been “misinterpreted” by students who mistakenly thought these were the only subjects that top universities would consider."

//://www.theguardian.com/education/2019/may/23/russell-group-scraps-preferred-a-levels-list-after-arts-subjects-hit

[sincethereis]

@greatthat

At university level, often involves studying Latin which is useful for understanding many European languages.

It also has elements of English literature and History so you gain skills from all three areas.

[BubblesBuddy]

Well you could say Media Studies is state school only! Film studies too. Are private school pupils disadvantaged because these subjects are not available? No.

Chinese degrees have Chinese people on them. Or native speakers. All MFL degrees have this to some extent. Getting from GCSE to Degree with no obvious talent is difficult. If you have a talent, why no do an A level. Ab ibnitio means a lot of slog and independent learning. Hats off to anyone that brave and dedicated! Manchester are a bit odd about MFL recruitment. They said to DD that they only cared about 2 A level results. Not to think she would be turned down if her third was a disaster. Vital Bums on seats I think.

Classics is taught at few universities. Therefore where it is taught, students tend to be high achieving. Of course classics students can get good jobs! Convert to law for starters. Goodbyestranger has a better handle on this than I do but I’ve never met a less than gifted classicist! They can be anything! Except a scientist of course!

Facilitating might be “out” but preferred subjects are still listed by Cambridge!

Film is great for film. Ok as a third subject with one or two preferred subjects. Lots of subjects are in this category.

[ErrolTheDragon]

There's a heck of a lot of old documents written in Latin, and (I guess to a slightly lesser extent) classical Greek. It would be a cultural tragedy if no one could read them.

Similar arguments can be applied to eg mediaeval Italian or ancient Icelandic.

IMO we need these subjects but it's probably right that they should be highly elitist (ability, not family background) - a small number of top-notch experts.

[floraloctopus]

IMO we need these subjects but it's probably right that they should be highly elitist (ability, not family background) - a small number of top-notch experts.

But it is right that those experts are only those who have been able to have a private education?

[DitheringDan]

If you have a talent, why not do an A level

I did say that, but it's a bit late -- he chose his A-levels some years ago

[Piggywaspushed]

Point of order bubbles : lots of private schools offer Film Studies.

[ErrolTheDragon]

But it is right that those experts are only those who have been able to have a private education?

No, as I hoped to imply by the 'not family background' bit. And top universities presumably agree, hence offering ab initio classics degrees.

[floraloctopus]

Errol I get that you aren't implying it but it's what is happening as state school applicants have to do the 4 year degree which is limited to those from good incomes who can afford the extra year at university.

[Needmoresleep]

Floral, aren't all Oxford Classics degrees four years?

[floraloctopus]

I thought so but the link to preferred subjects says 3 years with Latin or Greek A Level:
Classics (three-year course): applicants must take Latin or Greek A-level. If not, the four-year course can be considered.

[BubblesBuddy]

Well this is what will happen if (when) Oxford move to foundation courses for more degrees. Opening access may mean 4 years instead of 3 for a whole host of degrees!

[BubblesBuddy]

Which academic private schools offer film studies?

[ErrolTheDragon]

Well this is what will happen if (when) Oxford move to foundation courses for more degrees. Opening access may mean 4 years instead of 3 for a whole host of degrees!

If their 'foundation courses' are specifically aimed at students from underprivileged backgrounds, I'm assuming they'll be free or cheap and funding for living costs will be available.

Of course, many good degrees are already 4 (or more) years - MEng, medics, vets where the extra cost is hopefully offset by better earnings. But that's the standard deal, there's no disparity. Unfortunately, I bet a lot of foundation years for subjects less esoteric than Oxbridge classics are more often needed by students who've had poorer schooling, therefore more likely to have lower grades and/or inappropriate subject choices. This is not the fault of better schools, be they private or state.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Just found this, apologies if anyone has already posted it. It looks to be from 2016 so pre-reforms:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jun/15/a-level-subjects-preferred-by-universities-by-private-school-and-comprehensive

Spreadsheet:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Gs5wMa65scB9g3tILQQKKMNoNbOt0ffbWy1xy2W0M/htmlview?authkey=CN-a3McI&hl=en_US#

[floraloctopus]

That's really interesting Errol.
DD (back when they still had AS levels) did 1 facilitating subject at A level and another at AS but dropped it as she was predicted a B not an A and was holding an offer of AAB so ended up with 3 A levels but only one facilitating subject. It didn't do her any harm when it came to getting into a Russell group university but they were decent subjects not ones on the list of non-preferred LSE subjects.

I have no A levels at all but have got unconditional offers from 4 universities at the moment for post-graduate studies, two are Russell group so there is hope for people with an unconventional academic background.

[Piggywaspushed]

Lots, bubbles. I know because I have sat next to these people on courses and am part of a Facebook Community. Not going to name them on here because you I really shouldn't or you might scoff but both in my town do (and both are definitely academically high achieving) as does at least one highly selective Grammar School (the one that was on TV...)

Film Studies is not at all as you (or Oxbridge ) imagine.

[BubblesBuddy]

I hardly watch any films so I’m not a film
convert! The top drawer schools I looked at didn’t list it but I also know state schools that offer Latin and Greek!

floraloctopus: One facilitating or preferred subject is fine! It is really annoying that there are continual posts where DC got into RG in spite of having just one! It utterly depends on the course.

I would strongly suggest that someone with Maths, design and Technology and Geology would be looked at for Civil Engineering at RG with no problems. Someone with German, Politics and Psychology would be fine for German! You will not need two!

What preferred subjects do is keep more options open. If someone had done Maths, DT and Physics, more choice of Engineering courses might well be available. Replace DT with Chemistry, even more because Chemical Engineering comes into the mix. If the university course is ok with one preferred subject and says so, and it’s not a wildly selective course, then fine. Bums on seats courses are different. They are trying to get any student onto the course that can make a good stab at it.

[floraloctopus]

floraloctopus: One facilitating or preferred subject is fine! It is really annoying that there are continual posts where DC got into RG in spite of having just one! It utterly depends on the course.

Exactly. Im sure they'd prefer one or nomne at A/B than 3/4 at C/D.
DD got a place on a heavily over-subscribed university with a reputation for being extremely particular about high grades and who claim not to read personal statements (open day seminar) as a result so it obviously wasn't the be all and end all for them.

[BubblesBuddy]

Well the course isn’t over subscribed if they don’t read a PS. Heavily over subscribed courses do and most of them insist on at least one preferred subject at A grade. So what is the subject floraloctopus?

[floraloctopus]

Psychology. I think they do read the ps but at the open day they said they don't as it's all about the grades.

[sendsummer]

The cynic in me thinks that this move by the Russell Group is from a need to fill their university places and therefore allow much more flexibility in the subjects they accept for offers even in traditional core degrees.
All of present A level subjects have intrinsic value and interest. Some subjects are more demanding in the level of core academic skills they require and therefore prepare better for demanding academic courses requiring those skills.

Similarly some degrees (like classics and history ) give a head start in certain highly applicable skills to most jobs and life generally. Such as writing concisely and elegantly, objective and rapid appraisal of evidence resulting in high quality analysis, logical thinking, and problem solving, communication and appreciation of other points of view. Even better if somebody comes out of education with some broad culture that gives them interests and makes them interesting to talk to. I would definitely include film studies for the latter.

[Piggywaspushed]

Thanks send. The other thing I would say for the much misunderstood A Level is that it encourages students to think politically and critically (which does not happen so much in Eng Lit) so as to understand the bias of the creator. This is why Communication and Culture (dumped by its own board pre Reform) was so great. Students no longer get the opportunity to learn about feminism, Marxism, post Colonialism, market liberal values in any subjects in the same way they did in that subject . It was terribly useful for then being able to apply more widely to an understanding of culture and society,and students I taught always said how much more they knew at uni than their counterparts.. And it taught about cultural capital , which, ironically, is back to being all the rage. Just goes to show how short sighted some of the reforms were, since it was declared the subject had an overlap with Media, which it absolutely didn't!
In Eng Lit if one chooses a certain route through with my exam board (the one most used by private schools), one can almost entirely avoid any texts written by women or written outside of the UK! (disclaimer : I didn't choose the pale male, stale route!)The other great thing about film is I can cling on to the importance of foreign languages, since students have to watch several foreign films . A great supplement, therefore, to anyone doing MFL A Levels.

I think every subject definitely has value : analysis, essay writing, memorising facts, debate, intellectual curiosity and discovery. Maths always seems to me the narrowest subject because it rigorously tests the mind but doesn't broaden it (although of course it is valid as an academic subject) and I never really understand why so many students who want to study - say- history or English take it as an A Level. But they may just really like it I guess! It is massively more popular than it used to be and seems to have a broader intake at A Level. I suspect this may be down to a lack of varied offer at many schools, the increased focus on those facilitating subjects, the emphasis(not fully understood) on STEM for STEM's sake, and a lack of imagination on the part of the students (and their parents and teachers) when making choices. Poor A Level choices do lead to low achievement , often, which more than any other factor closes off those top universities to students.

All that said, I suspect DS2 may suggest he wants to do A Level Law next year : at which point I may waver. Having seen exam papers and taught many students who took it, I have not come across any other subject quite as Gradgrindian as A Level Law.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Maths always seems to me the narrowest subject because it rigorously tests the mind but doesn't broaden it (although of course it is valid as an academic subject) and I never really understand why so many students who want to study - say- history or English take it as an A Level.

This may sound rude but isn't meant to be, but that suggests a lack of breadth (and depth) in your own mind. Perhaps if you've only done maths to gcse level you might not even be aware of what you're missing? Maths can involve a different way of thinking. In terms of useful skills to carry forward, an obvious example is a firm grasp of statistics, the lack of which is too often apparent in newspaper reports and reactions to them, and also has lead to some appalling miscarriages of justice.

It's a pity that 'the two cultures' phenomenon still seems to exist, and in the U.K. it's surely exacerbated by the limited number of A level subjects taken. So, for those who aren't wanting to follow a course which requires specific skills and content, a mix is surely a good thing. For the specialists, I wish there was room in the timetable and budgets for non-examined complementary teaching of some sort - learning for its own sake as an end in itself not a means to an end.

[ErrolTheDragon]

Oh, and another more basic note on the popularity of maths - if you look at graduate earnings, most of the top of the table is occupied by the numerate.

[ZandathePanda]

Have you seen the new politics syllabus?

No way can that be thought of as unchallenging. Even just getting through all the new stuff they’ve put in it.

Extra challenging is that it’s the UK and European sections next week and the questions were set months ago