Graduate Apprenticeships

[Shimy]

DS2 is showing interest in GA's for when the time comes (currently in yr 10) and has been asking lots of questions about the university side of things.

I had a quick look at some apprenticeships and must say, i was a bit miffed by some of the accrediting universities. For instance there's a fantastic looking GA with Ernst & Young but the degree training provider is 'BPP university'. Another great looking one is accredited by 'Roehampton university'. Another good one offered by the FCA has its degree accredited by 'QA training'.

I've never even heard of Roehampton or BPP universities. Am I being ridiculous in expecting that good GA's will have the degree accredited by well known universities or perhaps this aspect really doesn't matter. Like I said the content of the GA's were all fantastic with well known organisations but i can't get over the degree part.

I'd love to hear other's views.

A lot of higher/degree apprenticeships won't commit to degrees from the off. Some companies only offer them internally to the apprentices that do well at the first year or two so you need to do a lot of research.

From experience:

Car manufacturers offer them (think BMW, JLR) 4-6 years to get degree. Mid, non RG Unis.

Microsoft, Vodafone etc. Though no guarantees of intake type and number the former also don't guarantee a degree but you do get a hell of a whopper on the cv just working for them. Not all are technical, the majority are business/sales related.

Barclays and some other banks do degree apprenticeships. Again not all financial, mostly business, management.

Smaller companies, one I know of is e2v in Chelmsford. They offer mechanical or electrical through Greenwich uni for 5 years. Good if the kid wants to go into R&D.
I've heard of nuclear physics ones at a nuclear plant. All sorts of others.

It is not about the uni, that's just a means to get the piece of paper/tick a box. It is 100% about the experience you get from industry.

Sorry - I wasn't very clear. The standards are job focused but the reality is that the opportunities often extend far beyond where you initially start. Data Science for example is linked to a Data Scientist role but you could apply this in so many different ways / functions / businesses and could be great for someone who has an interest in maths and is quite analytical. We as a business then help people find the best way to apply this.

My point was more about University. It's a general view and may not be applicable to everyone but if for example someone isn't sure of what to study / what they want to do after University and simply goes because they feel like it's the only route, I'd suggest looking at a Degree Apprenticeship and actually working vs. simply getting the theory. The Chartered Manager programme for example is quite general (despite being linked to a Management career) and students learn whilst getting practical experience that is so valuable.

I'm probably biased but also think apprenticeships are a great opportunity for people seeking a career change / wanting to retrain following redundancy or other circumstances. I know programmes where the age range is from 16-54 which is great.

I have never heard them called graduate apprenticeships before. But if you mean degree apprenticeships then I can tell you a little bit about them as my eldest ds is just in the final part of applications for September.

I have to say I don't recognise your description of the Universities. He has applied for many and they have almost all been through top Universities. His interest is programming so maybe that is different. His A levels are Maths, Further Maths and Computer Science. A* predictions for all 3 and he got as far as interview for Maths at Cambridge as well as offers for a number of other Russel Group Unis. I only give this background as a preface to showing that our standards are very high for what Uni his degree comes from.

Ones he applied for: IBM (Exeter Uni), Dyson (Warwick Uni), Bloomberg (Queen Mary's), Goldman Sachs (Queen Mary's), J.P. Morgan (Exeter). These are all degrees in something like Digital Technology (basically computer science degrees) except Dyson which is an engineering degree.

By the way, I did my postgrad at Roehampton many years ago - it is a well thought of institution!

The traditional universities have been slow on the uptake but Im in a Russell group and I know two other Russell group unis that have just employed apprenticeship managers so things will start to develop. BPP has a good track record of those types of qualifications though. At the end of the day its the knowledge and skills aligned to the apprenticeship standard you should be looking at. How much off the job training do they get? It should be minimum 20% but how is it organised?

Just to add - there seems to be no one way that companies run them either. Overall, I see a trend away from students actually attending a brick Uni. Goldman Sachs and Bloomberg are an exception - students attend work three days a week and Uni two days a week at Queen Mary's. Dyson runs its on onsite institute so lectures are actually done there but in conjunction with Warwick (though this is the final intake who will receive their degree from Warwick as they are becoming an accredited institution soon. The others I listed before all do online lectures which I think is not a good system.

I wouldn't let the accrediting institution worry you.

The main reason not to use a university with an existing undergrad degree in the appropriate subject is that it allows the apprenticeship provider more freedom to deliver the syllabus without having to rely on university staff, which gives them more control. This can be better from the students perspective as they get dedicated staff who don't have university duties taking precedent.

Personally I'd prefer a degree from an established uni but pragmatically, an apprenticeship is easier to manage when you have more control. And the main thing the makes apprentices employable is the work experience not the accreditation.

So my advice is to focus on the employer, not the accreditior

The degree apprenticeships offered by EY, PWC, Deloittes and KPMG are on the job training schemes for those taking their ICAEW or ACCA professional accountancy exams. A cynic would say that they are a way for the Big 4 to reclaim their apprenticeship levy from the government. There are essentially 2 companies which provide accountancy training to the Big 4 - BPP and Kaplan. They provide intensive exam training which the accountancy firm provides all on the job training. Each Big 4 firm sends all their students to one of the two training companies. BPP set up their university arm a few years ago when the government was trying to open up the university sector. Both BPP and Kaplan work in partnership with the Big 4 with their apprenticeship schemes.

DS will likely apply for the Edinburgh Uni/PWC data science degree/apprenticeship next year. PWC have a number of graduate apprenticeships at several universities. DS wants to be an actuary, and his other applications will be for a Maths degree, but he’s also tempted by the idea of working in a data science role and getting a degree at the same time. He’s doing the EY Business Academy this summer and that experience (along with his Higher results!) will decide whether he does apply for it.

wicked the Data Science degree apprenticeship with PWC is also available with St Andrews as the university.

celtiethree Yes, thanks, he knows but for some reason he’s adamant that he wants to apply for Maths at St Andrews and the Data Science apprenticeship at Edinburgh and no other combination (well, on top of Maths at three other places).

Trashcan -Thanks for the advice.

The schemes in Scotland with Edinburgh and St Andrews sound stupidly amazing. Wicked good luck to your ds.

The one you mentioned in Newbury - friends ds is doing this - just at end of 2nd year & loves it - will get degree at end - but should also get offered a job at one level above graduate intake as he is already working alongside them now - but remember that competition for the few places is probably ten to one - so in theory they would take someone with cc - in practice the applicants will have much better than that

I agree with other posters. If you want to study accountancy, as in the technical, professional skills, BPP university' ought to be your first, rather than your last, choice.

They have being doing it for decades and are very good at what they do.

If your DS is genuinely interested in accountancy, he shouldn't limit his search to the Big 4. Almost every firm now offers apprenticeships as the students take their professional exams. The apprenticeship route with the bigger firms tends to push you down either the audit or tax route from day 1, whereas smaller firms may give you broader experience.

He also definitely doesn't need an accountancy degree if he decides to go to university. It's probably less than 5 -10% of students who enter the profession with an accountancy degree these days.

Bear in mind that the firm will pick the training provider, either Kaplan or BPP, & the student may find that they change training provider during their training contract. Both Kaplan & BPP are paid to get students through their professional exams, with students typically in college for 7-10 days per paper, with 15 papers to pass in total to qualify as a Chartered Accountant typically over a 3 year period. The rest of the time you are working. Once you have qualified, employers will not be remotely interested in whether you studied with Kaplan or BPP and whether of not you got a degree alongside your ICAEW qualification. They will only care about your practical experience and the fact that you have ACA or ACCA after your name.

If you are going to get As at A level like the boy here then he is better going a more normal ruote - best university he can possibly get into (not an apprenticeship route) because in 10 years time he may well be changing careers - loads of people do and the employerse may well be looking at Oxford, Edinburgh, Durham, Bristol v these other places which are not known so well and it may be held againsth im later.

Eg in law (my profession) whilst you can do a law degree with BPP just about no one does at the good firms where you might earn £100k+ and instead goes to the universities it is harder to get into and then after that then go into post grade which may well be at BPP or wherever else their future employer has a contract with for the post grad exams.

It’s interesting that some firms say their apprentices do better than traditional grads, I wonder how they compare them? All the big employers still take on more grads than apprentices.

The qualifications for the apprenticeship holders can be as good as those going to the higher end universities mentioned by Xenia. The young person with CC at A level almost certainly won’t be as good as an Oxbridge grad with a first and their training wouldn’t be the same. If the apprentice could have gone to a top university, then they may well look very good after 3-4 years because the firm has moulded them during the time they have been employed. What about comparing after 10 years? The data just is not there. Currently it’s anecdotal.

The standard grad hasn’t had years of working but it should be remembered that these firms are still very actively recruiting from the best universities. It depends what suits you in terms of work, money and qualification.

There is an issue with how portable the qualification is. To be blunt, Roehampton was a teacher training college and designated as a college of higher education. It wasn’t a polytechnic. It is not ranked very highly but of course has its place in higher education.

I also know Jaguar Land Rover have had employees educated at Warwick university for decades! This is a very long established partnership and these apprenticeships are highly sought after. Certainly by DC who could have gone to Warwick anyway!

So, like many aspects of education, be careful about what you choose and think about how good it really is. If it’s an equivalent qualification and from a university commensurate with DCs A levels, then great, but not all are at this level. I’m not really sure QMU cuts it against, say, Warwick or Bath in many respects. So be choosy because some of the degrees offered are very niche. The quality of the apprenticeship must be evaluated for its overall package. The best ones are very competitive.