Architecture A levels & Requirements/Aptitude?

[teta]

I’m posting this on behalf of dd2 currently in year 10. And I’m generally looking for advice from anyone with experience or knowledge. She’s expected to do well in her GCSEs and attends a very academic school. Good at Art and Maths and has always been highly creative and interested in design from a very young age. Also very astute and I suspect would be very good in business.
She’s not sure what she wants to do and her school is very much into professional jobs based on Maths and Sciences. I’ve been thinking about Architecture for her but know absolutely nothing about it. Would she be the right sort of person for a career in this?

[MariaNovella]

It would certainly mean architects needed maths and physics to be successful and that just won’t happen.

That is exactly where architecture is going - maths/physics/art/art history are the key skills at school stage, plus great written and oral communication skills because you have got to be very good indeed at explaining your ideas and convincing people to choose them.

[bpisok]

Firstly I didn't say that architects sign off their own structural drawings. It's not something I have seen but perhaps there are some who are double qualified?
What I did say was that architects need to design things that actually stand up and won't cost zillions to make it stand up..l
The majority of applicants present with Maths, Physics and art. Some have DT instead of art, or some have graphics and some have CS. Major projects have a huge amount of 3D or 4D models.
I am also only talking about architects that work on major projects (think stations, airports, ports, high rise). No idea what local architects doing car parks, extension etc have.
I work for a major engineering company and work with architects on a daily basis....I see their CVs on bids and on T&M jobs - the junior ones include their A Levels.
And someone pointed out that architects don't earn as much as engineers- that is a very accurate statement. Ours earn about 25% less and it takes the same amount of time to qualify.
Our civil engineers earn less than our oil and gas engineers, but earn more than our water engineers. One to avoid if you are after £ is environment. If you are looking at £ then construction management or project management is where the money is at....and PMs normally come up through the engineering route (so they are already chartered before the go down the APM route)
Hope that helps!

[bpisok]

But not everyone is looking just at the £. Some are looking to have a fulfilling career!!!

[MariaNovella]

Junior architects are badly paid compared with other professions. In order to make £ or € or $ you need great commercial skills. That’s the same for senior lawyers, accountants, management consultants.

[fishonabicycle]

My son looked at architecture - he was put off by the preference of the best universities for a levels in art/design, maths and physics. Also it is a 7 year degree course to get fully qualified.

[MariaNovella]

It’s a quite specific academic profile that includes Maths/Physics/Art/History of Art and one that is poorly catered to in many school systems.

[Kernobhead]

If you're put off by art, maths and physics then architecture is definitely not for you.

Don't be put off by thr 7 yr thing though. It takes in to account the equivalent of professional qualifications done post degree. I'm a chartered engineer, took 9 yrs in total to get there. 5 yrs University on a masters course, then 4 yrs post degree getting professional experience. The 4 yrs could be done in 3 if you're really keen!

[BubblesBuddy]

Gosh Kernob: DH was Civils Chartered at 24. 3 year degree and just over 3 years post degree. Of course that’s not possible now. IStructE at 28. Partner in company at 27.

Bpisok: as you know it’s not vital for Architects or engineers to work on vast projects. DHs environmental engineers are well paid. They are now vital for many developments. Often they are Civil Engineers who have specialised as they worked or they might have a masters in Environmental Engineering.

So few schools offer History of Art, that’s just not a useful suggestion. It’s impossible for most of the school population. There are very many Architectural courses that do not specify Physics A level. I found three without much effort. There will be loads of others and the ones that do can easily be filtered out. Therefore it’s necessary to have an overview of the profession and understand that architects do not all work in major projects. In fact few do! Many work on residential projects or refurbishment for example. This is where Geography can be useful. They can spend a lot of energy on planning issues and Geography lends itself to this as well. Architecture is about improving the built environment, not just huge projects working for large international
Consultancies. Few do this! Reality for most is something completely different!

However, it’s often a Civil Engineer who will design the drainage for the car park. And if this doesn’t meet regs, the Architecture will be irrelevant!

[MariaNovella]

Bubbles - Architecture, like Engineering or Medicine or Veterinary Medicine, is a profession subject to evolution that is international in character. That evolution is not dependent on the limitations of national school systems.

[Kernobhead]

Bubbles, I assume your DH works for a consultancy? They can generally get the experience quicker than those like me who are a main contractor. I had to take a year out from my contacting to work in a design office to get the design experience. 4 years is normal for my company - 3 yr grad programme plus a year in design office.

we are also under less time pressure as our charge out rate and promotions are not generally dependant on being chartered.

You also now need MEng, 4 yr degree as the most common route to chartership, a 3 yr BEng will need further study, so another separate MSc, or go down the experience route which is by its nature a longer process.

Sorry, gone off topic here, but it’s important for any would- be chartered engineers to get on the right, accredited course from the off, to avoid additional post grad studies or a more tortuous route to CEng down the line.

[Jaxhog]

I studied Architecture (UCL) and am married to an Architect (also UCL). Courses do vary, but while Maths is often required, Art is not essential. What is more important is a good 3D and spatial awareness. She will need a good portfolio that demonstrates this.

How much structural stuff you need to learn will depend on the course, but is increasingly needed as building get more complex. Being able to understand the structural side means you can have better conversations with the engineers. Focussing on getting a good grade (and understanding) of Physics would be good. )We both studied Physics to A Level, neither of us studied Art.

Bubbles suggestion to talk to the RIBA is a good one. They will have the most up-to-date info.

Although Architecture is a fascinating career, it also isn't the best paid, unless you focus on commercial buildings or celebrety houses!

[MariaNovella]

Jaxhog - I presume you mean that Art A-level is not a requirement, given that a portfolio is a requirement. Obviously there are lots of ways and means of creating a portfolio of artwork without needing to do art at school.

[Jaxhog]

@MariaNovella exactly right. While my Art teacher helped me to put my portfolio together, I didn't take any GSCE's or A Levels in Art. Neither did my DH.

[MariaNovella]

My DD won’t be taking Art A-Level - she’s at school in France - and most of her exposure to art and art history will be outside school. TBH I think that’s a positive, as she has much more artistic freedom and much more exposure to architecture than she would do at A-level.

[goodbyestranger]

It’s a quite specific academic profile that includes Maths/Physics/Art/History of Art and one that is poorly catered to in many school systems.

It's the bog standard suite of A levels at our school where a good number of students have gone off to Cambridge/ Bartlett etc over the years. I'm not clear that 'artistic freedom' at school age is much more than highfalutin nonsense. Art A level allows quite enough freedom for any student with imagination but demands a certain breadth and depth for the qualification, at least for an A*.

[goodbyestranger]

Indeed this is a state school where money has inevitably been tight over recent years. When cuts in the curriculum were suggested the SLT chose very specifically to hang on to A Level Art for those wanting to be architects.

[MariaNovella]

Look at the statistics, goodbyestranger. The combination of Physics and Art is rare. Obviously when you live in a small provincial town you are going to need school to offer A-level courses as preparation for university because there aren’t going to be alternatives. In large cities things like art or MFL will have alternative and far more enriching providers so the importance of school offering diminishes.

[goodbyestranger]

I don't live in a provincial town I live in a honeypot village on the coast:
new lambs, bluebells, wild garlic, a perfect calm sea at low tide - particularly beautiful tonight on this beautiful May evening - beats Paris hands down :)

I don't need statistics or the brains of an archbishop I simply know that Art and Maths and Physics are bog standard and not half as special as you make out (esp if you think all 'provincial towns' make the offering which is very different from what you said in your earlier post, implying the combination was somehow exotic. It really isn't).

[MariaNovella]

Well OK you live in a small village. No way do children in small villages have huge educational and cultural opportunities beyond what their schools provide, unless they are dead set on being vets or geologists, in which case they will have far better opportunities to explore options than children in bigger cities. I’ve spent a lot of my life in picturesque villages with lovely bluebells.

[goodbyestranger]

So this: 'It’s a quite specific academic profile that includes Maths/Physics/Art/History of Art and one that is poorly catered to in many school systems.'

Or this: 'Obviously when you live in a small provincial town you are going to need school to offer A-level courses as preparation for university because there aren’t going to be alternatives.'

You're tying yourself in knots Maria. Rarefied or available in every small provincial town?

Basically it's a bog standard offering for any aspiring architect.

[justasking111]

As a village dweller in Gods country my DS is doing architecture. The unis wanted to see his portfolio emailed as well as on open days. Luckily he decided early on he wanted architecture so his brilliant art teacher and Design Technology teacher encouraged him in that direction. He has done a lot of photography and arty stuff on buildings, graphic design, studying artists who use buildings. He is doing physics but equally could have done maths it was a toss up after his GCSE results.

Make your portfolio shine, DS said he saw some awful ones on the day which cheered him up considerably.

[justasking111]

Oh get hold of some books on architects, I bought some second hand. Frank Lloyd Wright, Frank Gehry, Renzo Piano. We enjoyed reading them too.

[MarchingFrogs]

No way do children in small villages have huge educational and cultural opportunities beyond what their schools provide

Not quite the most bizarre statement I've heard so far, but... okay, perhaps not popping into the Louvre / Prado / Tate Modern every day after school for an hour or three, but you do know that it is possible for people in villages to, you know, get out occasionally? And read books, watch interesting highbrow programmes on the telly (, Mary Beard and her ilk don't have a clause in all their TV contracts insisting that they won't be broadcast to anywhere with a population less than a couple of million), access the internet, talk to each other to share experiences (and to people who live in other places). Etc.

[BubblesBuddy]

Kernob: yes I was winding you up about DHs qualification time. He employs grad engineers and knows the current timetable and required qualifications. I’m continually banging on about prospective engineers doing MEng for the quickest qualification route.

I think Physics for Architects is over stated on here. For high flyers yes, it’s useful. However, Manchester, Sheffield and Nottingham for example don’t ask for it. Neither do they ask for History of Art. Clearly being able to produce a good portfolio is important and Art A level
or similar helps with that. There are many architectural schools listed by RIBA which will do the job but are not Bath or Bartlett. If the OPs DD is not sure about Physics, all is truly not lost.

OP - look at RIBA for any events they put on for young people. Go and get informed. There is no rigid set of qualifications at many universities so Personal Statement and Portfolio will count. Not doing physics will rule out some places but not many.

Thousands of British Architects work in smaller practices. They enjoy their work and it is ridiculous to say that everything in the architectural world is international. DH has never done any overseas engineering and none of our architect friends have designed anything abroad or worked abroad. Most people don’t. You can still be a great architect by getting interesting work here. It’s unfortunately cyclical though and certainly dips when there is an economic trough.

[sendsummer]

I know nothing about architecture except hearing from DCs who are studying to do it (seem to spend an awful lot of time making models) and occasionally watching Grand Designs .
However certainly art or DT plus physics and maths are the A level subject combinations that the academic schools I know advise for architecture so are a fairly standard set of subjects in these schools.

That would tally with bpisok’s observation that many applicants and junior architects have done these subjects. However having just glanced through some of the admissions’ requirement for the top few courses, none of the universities except for Bath specify that A level maths or physics are required. In fact at least one main Cambridge college states that maths is not a requirement (although Cambridge do say that art is better than DT for their course). So is the need for A level physics and maths a self perpetuating myth?
Perhaps naively I would have thought that strong evidence of the ability and desire for 3 dimensional creativity (from the portfolio) and an instinct for the use of space would rank more highly as otherwise why become an architect. rather than project management of buildings by the chartered engineer route? Surely junior architects can learn the principles of what is feasible and safe for their designs and a common technical language with engineers without doing the detailed maths for structural and materials checks themselves? The latter would just take time away from their productive design time I would have thought.
Commercial sense including communication skills are obviously going to be a core attributes for success whether an architect or engineer.