Student snobbishness?

[keysofhope]

Hello there,

I was just wondering if anyone else has had their children complain of snobbish course mates? DS goes to a place full of very very privileged students, many of whom from the most famous boarding schools.

He finds many to be quite snobbish. He says that he seems to think that people think him a bit thick and instantly to be working class as he is from Scotland. They also assume as he is not from London that equally he must be dirt poor and only got into said university for access reasons. They also think that as he went to a Gaelic state school, then he must once more be not worth their time.

What DH finds funny (who is from the sort of background as those in complaint), is that many of them are second generation immigrants with parents who've done well, but now see themselves as the English gentleman sort.

For the note of it, being working class is great (my mum was), but I am putting it like this as it's a definite looking down ones nose for it.

[BubblesBuddy]

Having looked up the history of the word “chav”: it comes from the Romany word for child. It may have been appropriated to describe people from Chatham. However some people, in its early days of widespread use, thought it merely described working class made good. Cheryl Cole thought this. However Polly Toynbee and others saw a more sinister side to the word and their views have become mainstream. Others see it equivalent to words like “skallies” describing people from a certain area who would align themselves to the working class. Like many words, meanings change over time. Others think Chav is just another word to describe a “yob” or an “oik”. Both are commonly used as a derogatory term but few people object loudly to these being used in mainstream chat or journalism.

However one thing is abundantly clear: We do have an obsession with labels!

[goodbyestranger]

I'm still struggling a bit dapplegrey. Posh needs qualification to be an insult and you seem to concede that, so is there an issue?

[dapplegrey]

Goodbye the word posh may well not be an insult on its own but it can be used as one.
The word ‘fat’ is a descriptor but if someone shouts ‘you fat git’ then they intend it as an insult.

[Xenia]

I've never liked chav and never used it.

Unfortunately it seems to be human nature for many people in all places at all times to brand chose different from them as not good or that they are wicked or bad. One of my daughters was talking about it at night - she and I are remainers but someone had said something very nasty about those who voted brexit. Those brexit are people's neighbours, they are a good proportion of the country. Just because someone has a different political or other view or looks different or speaks differently should not be a reason to call them names. There is too much division in the country at the moment. We somehow need to come together more and I hope the experience of being a students lets teenagers see we are all humans and just get to know the person not be put off by their class, accent etc.

[BubblesBuddy]

bpisok: I agree with you.

However there seem to be deep seated and entrenched views that anyone not like you is to be branded with a derogatory term. Years ago “Chav” was barely seen as derogatory. It was merely descriptive of someone wearing head to toe Burberry! In the same way that “toffs” at Ascot wear top to toe morning suits and top hats. It just appears the Brits have labels for everyone!

[goodbyestranger]

dapplegrey with respect, I think you're being over-sensitive about the use of the word posh on it's own. It is not the equal of words such as chav, which is clearly derogatory without any need for further qualification.

[dapplegrey]

Posh may not necessarily be an insult but it can certainly be used as one. Certainly the people who harangued my son were certainly using it as an insult.

[goodbyestranger]

Git and thicko are insulting terms, posh is not and hoorays, arguably, could merely be a descriptor.

I made the point in my earlier post so not quite sure what you're querying.

[dapplegrey]

Whereas chav and pikey are stand out insults.

Goodbye - so when, for example, posters on mn refer to certain tories as posh gits and thicko hoorays etc they’re not intending to insult them?

[Xenia]

One difference today and advice I would give to anyone who is not going to be kind to others is don't put in on line, even in private snapchat. It is like people who write "this might look like a cartel" who aren't in one but that one email is taken totally out of context and leads to the end of their life as they know it. Same with students - write down that stupid unkind banter even in a private whatsapp and you could lose your university place and possibly your career and also if you voice it out loud as people are recording things as a matter of course these days. of course don't even think never mind speak the nasty thoughts if you can help it but be very careful - the best friend who you think loves being called the dreadful knick name you have given them is probably going to be the person reading the chat later or watching the recording on youtube.

[bpisok]

Grrrrr.....I have been following this post for a while and (after 3 glasses of wine) have to join in.
The people OP are talking about are poorly behaved immature children, nothing more and nothing less.
Kids leave school and try to be popular (Finding a group and being the loudest maddest character).
Kids leave school and feel like they have to justify how they got their place at Uni
Kids leave school and want to find friends
Kids have been in a bubble based on their environment (rich/poor/northern/southern/international/black/white/asian/other/gay/straight/bi/christian/muslim/Buddhist/Sikh/Jewish/Hindu and goodness knows which other variants of humanity)

They are growing up and the DC who enter Uni aren't the same ones that leave.

DD would probably fall into the 'posh' category. Her Brunmie cousins take the mick about how she speaks and call her posh. She is common compared with her school friends. She calls a few girls at school chavs because they drink in the park with boys.

....BUT, and here's the big BUT.....it doesn't matter they are all friends. They are just words.
All groups are loud and can be intimidating (to anyone outside the group) - but when you know the individual person as a 'real' person the differences don't matter

We as adults seem to be perpetuating the 'them and us'. There's a ludicrous amount of stereotyping that we as MN seem to do!!!

Like I say Grrrrrr.
Am I wrong???

[BubblesBuddy]

I wasn’t really directing any comments at you, goodbye.

Having been to the Bullingdon Club Point to Point and the Pegasus Club Point to Point since I was knee high, I do recognise the rather outlandish types you talk about! They are, a tiny minority though.

However one thing my DM used to say and I have repeated to my DDs is: “If you cannot say anything nice, don’t say it at all”. I realise I don’t live up to this high standard but if we all did, wouldn’t life be more pleasant?

[BasiliskStare]

Ha ha Goodbye your skills are well allied to your inclinations.

Yes I think braying is normally related to a "posh" or "posh-ish" accent - too loudly and without consideration or self awareness - whether that's inextricably linked to intelligence - don't know - I do know several such conversations overheard ( well - forced on me by aforementioned braying ) I wouldn't necessarily bet on huge thoughtfulness or massive overthinking.

Kismetjayn anyone who tells anyone they didn't go to a "proper school" is just downright unthinking and frankly a bit dim and rude in my book. I would not say these people do not exist.

I think that, although obviously the major thing most students want is to come out with is a decent degree to let them get through to the next stage of their life , a tangential benefit is learning to be a small fish in a big pond and just getting on with whoever you can , and having the confidence , if you really don't get on with someone or a group of people , find your own friends , whoever they are. No-one gets on with everyone. ( Now that really is motherhood and apple pie isn't it) But as Ds said - ( and I think he had a wise head on young shoulders ) - there will always be people you don't like , and indeed who don't like you - just move on and find some people you do like. Actually , with a modicum of confidence, which can grow , I think that is easier at university. Later on ( e.g. small office or company or whatever DCs do next ) possibly gets harder the smaller the day to day environment. Best to practice now I think. And I do realise easier said than done before anyone picks me up on that.

[Xenia]

Kismet, good luck with your application. Most boarding school children are more not less used to getting a lunch at a cafeteria, including their dinner, obligations to put their kives and forks away, tidying up etc, ,much more so than day private school pupils who have parents around in the evening deal with their meal.

Anyway hopefully everyone can find some people they like at university although it would be a pity if people decided to segregate themselves by class or money as that removes one of the advantages of university that you can mix with people from different homes albiet you were all of the few who were bright enough to get good A levels or indeed any A levels.

[bellinisurge]

Went to a university with lots of posh types in the 80s. I'm from a working class/immigrant background. Never came up. Never an issue. We all giggled about those on the History of Art course because that seemed overpopulated with posh people. But I also knew someone from a very ordinary background on that course too and he reported no issues. We all used to go drinking together. Has it changed now?

[goodbyestranger]

Recalling as long ago as I can remember is poorly put, even for me. I mean from when I was about two.

[goodbyestranger]

Well Basilisk I think that's good advice to yourself; I still hold certain petty grudges decades after the event. And I have one of those memories which can recall small social incidents in detail as long ago as I can remember (that capacity is a great boon to grudge holders).

[goodbyestranger]

Bubbles I'm the one who introduced braying I think. It is the preserve of the moneyed. It's to do with an accent, allied with a lack of any real intelligence and which is shouting about something or another to which it considers itself entitled, usually because of a misplaced sense of superiority (eg over foxes, or people who are fond of foxes).

[Kismetjayn]

(locates the point)
I recently had an interview for an Oxbridge uni. I'm ... Not their typical demographic.

I was warned by a cousin who also goes to the same Uni that I would encounter a lot of very privileged people; she was from a 'good' school but not a top school and she was shocked by the disparity in wealth. Sure, they aren't the majority, but a visible number of people who don't know how a cafeteria works because they're used to having the food brought to them is going to stand out far more than a gaggle of people speaking at normal volume in a mix of accents. The slightly-more-posh-than-hers were all very encouraging to her, congratulating her on doing so well considering she didn't go to a 'proper school', and she warned me so that I could brace for this because if she, at some privilege, at the upper level of middle class, was still patronised, I will face full force of it if I get in, being a skint early-20s mother of a school-age child, who went to a comprehensive in a place best known for chavs and knife crime, NC with most of our family.

She warned me because even though they aren't the majority, they are the most noticeable. And even if they're not your friendship group, the 'good for you!'s will be something you encounter.

I named the college I'm applying to and she said 'oh, that's not so bad then' because it is an outreach college of sorts. But they'll still be in societies, on my course, and I encountered one on the bus who was interrogating fellow candidates (skimmed over me, obvs I'm not the type..) while dressed in jeans, designer platform trainers, with the attitude of this being the most casual day of her life. She was also applying for Durham, castle, because she read in Tatler that their white tie ball was something everyone must go to at least once in their life.

The interrogated pair were fairly normal, one a bit posh, one not so much, but she's the one who stands out. Saying 'oh there's plenty who aren't like that' doesn't make the ones who are stop existing.

[BasiliskStare]

"outdoor voices" Although I have experienced what I think of as braying outdoors as well

Anyway memo to self re grudges Do Not get on the wrong side of Goodbye

I do realise I have gone entirely off topic here - I can only say I am pootling around waiting for BIL to get to airport in the far east to tell him that the lovely pyjamas and face creams he has bought for his wife and daughters for Christmas are still sitting rather forlornly by my front door & does he want me to post them. ( Any excuse for not tidying up to make way for Christmas tree. )

Anyway - as you were - back to the point.

[BubblesBuddy]

What are the non posh students called who scream and shout in the street at 3 am in the morning when they are turfed out of the clubs and are vomiting in the Street? These students are seen in nearly every university city. I’m sure MN students can find a collective noun for them.

All sections of society have rather loud types! Or what about the heavy drinkers and dope takers who spend all their maintenance loan in the first month? They might not bray but they are certainly a problem.

By the way, Exeter and Edinburgh have expensive halls where the better off students live. Bristol, oddly, has many ex boarding school pupils in the cheapest halls. No one else wants the rather dated accommodation with one bathroom between 6. Cheaper rents mean they have more money for entertainment!

[Xenia]

We are all in agreement in that case. I certainly remember a train journey when a nice lady near us told my children they were using "outdoor voices" (and that certainly shut them up - good for her).

[BasiliskStare]

Yes yes "braying" to me is not not being able to project your voice when appropriate , it's just doing that thing little children often do when they cannot modulate their voice & feel they have to speak at full volume at all times and don't realise in a group of people it is quite loud and a bit annoying to people around them. Cute sometimes and forgivable in small children - not so much so at 18 / 20 ish.

[goodbyestranger]

Agree with all that Xenia. Braying for me is not just the fact of a posh accent, or even an affectedly posh accent, but has to do with the manner in which its used, and volume, and content as well. So absolutely not purely accent at all. We had rather too many Exeter students round our way giving their opinions on the 'class war' being waged against them in the British countryside around the time of the Hunting Act. Perhaps I should let it go after fourteen years but a) I tend to harbour grudges b) they were very loud indeed, esp after a few drinks and c) I'm peculiarly fond of foxes (thriving in the village now - beautiful creatures:)).

[Xenia]

An English student or sociology student could do us a good paper on particularly words I expect and how they change over time. Posh git is probably nasty. Posh is not partiuclarly insulting - port out staboard home etc. Pov sounds names; from poverty does not to the same extent. Also it can depend how people say things and your manner too so it is hard to generalise. My sons' pakistani friends calling each other paki in banter (probably not a good idea) is probably not nastily meant in any sense but it would best if white students didn't use the term etc etc.

I don't think students should be noisy and loud at all. but I am sure noise issues are a problem in student areas. As I went to bed at 9 and up at 5 at university and had poems published in the university magazine about noise at night being bad I was not exactly little miss popular on that front but I stuck to my guns!

However if we just mean some students can talk more clearly than others and loudly but appropriately in a class and others may mumble and cannot be heard then that would not presumably be braying. One of the things I want me sons to have is a voice that can carry a room and clarity of speech and diction sufficient that they can be understood (as I do an awful lot of public speaking).