Remarks and general marking from a teacher and examiner's POV

[Shadowboy]

I'm not new to mums net but I am a 'lurker'. I've found reading many threads in here very interesting.

I have been teaching for 10 years at GCSE and A Level only (all exam students) and I am also an examiner for 2 different exam boards and two different subjects. I team lead a paper so examiner experience is pretty good (since 2007)

Remarks- they are done by a more senior examine - TL or PE (principal examiner) depending on subject and exam board approx 30% of exam papers are sent for remarks! Most do not change but approx 10% will change (up or down) in some cases it is because the original paper was harshly or weakly marked. Occasionally it may be a computer clerical error (most exam boards use online marking/scanned scripts)

In many cases where I HAVE awarded more marks its actually due to poor handwriting on the student's part. They are often so tricky to read that the examiner can't decipher what is being written - often then unable to apply to the mark scheme. I have more time and more experience and can often 'figure out' what is being said. I really recommend those students with tiny microscopic handwriting or poor handwriting to type!

Not every single paper is double checked so sometimes standards do slip sadly. I have to sample my team 3 times (total of 30 samples) when they mark 150 papers so some will slip through.

When having a remark the new examiner doesn't know the school/sex/background so have no idea if you've asked for a paper back too or what your teacher thinks. They simply re-apply the markscheme to the work.

As a teacher I am genuinely shocked that schools are recommending remarks without script photocopies first! It's such a risk and say the mark goes up by 2/3 and puts the student from a d to a c it still doesn't show where the student went wrong if they were expected an A grade.

It saves the parent money (or the school if they are paying) but the student learns nothing. Don't forget that UMS marks can be nearly 2 x the raw mark depending on where within the mark scale the student sits. So if it is remarked and goes from a C to a B it's probably gone up ~ 5 raw marks (depending on the original score) which is about 10 UMS marks, so it's just as easy to lose a grade as it is to gain one.

[Sadusername]

And I suppose, the university may take other factors into account such as teacher reference and personal statement , GCSE grades.

[mummymeister]

The thing about GCSE grades is that some kids reach their peak at GCSE's and really struggle with the intensity of A levels. whereas others have mediocre/good GCSE's but stunning a level results because they are only doing subjects that they are interested in.

I really don't think that there has been enough discussion or thought put into the system when AS levels go. surely it will be the kids at the most pushy schools who get help writing their PS that will win out over the less confident one who perhaps goes to a school where only a handful go to uni every year.

[Coffeewith1sugar]

I wonder if uni's got the full UMS points score for all modules in the A level subjects rather than just the grade would be better for them. So then they can get a fuller picture before they decide wether to reject someone. Rejecting by 1 UMS is really harsh especially if the student had brilliant UMS scores in other modules. They could use total UMS scores say for best 3 A level rather than specific grades. Just an alternative thought.

[Headofthehive55]

I totally agree. The whole process rather put us off higher education.
These are young people attempting to do their best. I doubt we could design a system that crushes them more.

I looked at a photocopy of my DDs script. Although answers were correct in a few places, no marks had been given. Apparently if it's not on the mark scheme they didn't get a mark, even if correct.

[haybott]

exams could finish mid July be marked early in August and if terms didn't start until later in September that would give plenty of time for people to find and be accepted on courses.

Right now the exams finish mostly by the beginning of June and the results are out mid way through August. How are you going to compress the marking period further?

Right now the vast majority of students are accepted on A level results day (420,000 students) and a pretty small fraction go through clearing and adjustment. It is simply not the case that most students miss firms and insurances.

How on earth would universities process applications from 500,000 students, with accompanying accommodation applications, in around 6 weeks when currently this process takes 8 months, with minor adjustments in August? Students would still need to apply to several universities, because they couldn't be sure of being accepted at one, so there would be a similar volume of applications to process in 6 weeks as is currently done between October and May.

How would universities know how many staff to have if they didn't get student numbers until August/September? Right now they already know roughly how many students they are going to get from January (close of UCAS deadline). You can't just go down to Randstad and get a temp to teach a professor's class in archaeology or organic chemistry.

If students are being asked to pay £9k plus for the right to go to Uni then Unis and the whole system need to start seeing them much more as customers and start looking at how things can be made better.

Education is not comparable to buying a car or a mobile phone. You don't pay your £9k and automatically get your 2:i: you have to achieve the right entrance grades and work at the right level. I think it is very dangerous for students to view university as a "customer" because it gives them the impression that they don't have to work for their grades, they will get them automatically just by showing up.

As for those from backgrounds with no history of university being disadvantaged: a number of university courses offer lower grades to such students and in addition the new "adjustment" period allows students to trade up. Adjustment is being used by more and more students.

[catslife]

I looked at a photocopy of my DDs script. Although answers were correct in a few places, no marks had been given. Apparently if it's not on the mark scheme they didn't get a mark, even if correct.
Head having marked papers not all answers lose marks because they are incorrect. Often students write answers that are worth no marks because they don't actually answer the question asked or are simply rewriting the information given in the question or (most common) that a required key word is missing.

[catslife]

Also need to add that at A level it isn't always one correct point is one mark either. Sometimes they need 2 points correct for one mark or 3 points for 2 marks etc. It's also possible for a mark to be dependent on a previous question so to obtain the mark for aii, ai must be correct. I hope that makes sense.

[Million2One]

I've typed this on my phone so I expect it isn't my best work

Haybott

If you moved the exam period to much earlier in the year say February there would be time for the exams to be marked and for students to apply. Students could still attend school after February doing extra work around their subject on a pass only basis. This is similar to Canada I think.

Unis could then access the exam data and publish their expected entry grades. Students would be able to apply with the correct grades and you wouldn't get this ridiculous nonsense where students have a wide range of ALevel grades on the same course. I'd welcome a admissions system that was entirely exam based, possibly with some exceptions such as medicine. Personal Statements are ignored by the majority of universities anyhow and, where they are used benefit already 'advantaged' kids the most.

I know on MN it seems like most kids get strings of A* s but in real life this isn't the case and its with the lower grades where the inaccurate predicted grades have their biggest effect. UCAS have recently published a report Factors associated with predicted and achieved A level attainment. I think it's a huge issue. Here's a quote from the report.....

In 2015, just over half of all English 18 year old applicants missed their predicted attainment over three A levels by two or more grades; an increase of 34 per cent since 2010

I think that's shocking. One of my DCs grades was under predicted by 2 grades. That meant a mad scramble to go through adjustment then a mad scramble to sort last minute accommodation. It's daft, stressful and unfair.

You mention how many students are placed but a significant number of those are placed through clearing. As of midnight last night there were still over 142,000 students free to be placed in clearing and 28,000 (just under) who have actually been placed through clearing. That's a hell of a lot of students. Fortunately none of my kids have gone through clearing but I don't think it's much fun and if there was a way to avoid it then I'd be all for it.

[Headofthehive55]

Having taught, and marked that subject, looking at the marking criteria I felt it was a case of guess what is in the teachers head. I understand about the marking scheme ( Ex teacher)

It is very difficult to predict grades I think - as shown in the survey.

To allow a situation where students are imagining themself at a particular institution, choosing halls, accepting Facebook requests (instigated by the uni I might add) - all the things to prepare them to leave home for the first time to make a good transition and then finding that no they have to transition elsewhere I think is cruel. Not to mention if they have done work experience as requested by various courses and now are faced with trying to get work experience in a different field.

We could change the system.

[haybott]

If you moved the exam period to much earlier in the year say February there would be time for the exams to be marked and for students to apply. Students could still attend school after February doing extra work around their subject on a pass only basis.

The argument against this is that it effectively shortens the teaching time and therefore the curriculum content - nobody would take seriously pass only exams taken in the summer. For some subjects (maths, sciences) loss of content would be an enormous issue. For other subjects (humanities) loss of maturity would be an issue i.e. students can make enormous progress between AS and A2, and cutting year 13 short would prevent students from reaching their potential before definitive exams were taken. In other words moving the exams could cause other issues.

On MN the question of changing the exam times/university entrance procedure is discussed from time to time. There is absolutely no discussion of this in higher education or in the DoE. Indeed the government has gone in the opposite direction: by removing AS and January exams, it is now much harder to make unconditional/low offers based on partial results.

[haybott]

BTW the statistics quoted above on clearing are a bit misleading.

Currently around 470k students have confirmed places. 30k or so have come through clearing. Another 140k are eligible to get places through clearing because they are in the UCAS system but in reality we only expect a total of 80k, i.e. another 50k students, to get places through clearing.

The remaining part of the 140k will not take up university places, apply next year or go to university abroad (many are international). This number includes people who will apply again next year for competitive courses like medicine.

Last year around 60k of the 530k students who went to university came through clearing, i.e. not much more than 10%.

The vast majority of students who drop a grade or two, or gain a grade or two, do get accepted at the institutions they had already chosen.

[Million2One]

I think moving to a post qualification application system is being discussed...

UCU 2015 poll

Students should apply to university after they receive their exam results, says a new report released by UCU

Seven in 10 staff back a move to university applications being done after students receive exam results

[Million2One]

This is interesting.
2015 Annual report of the Social Mobility and Child Poverty Commission pages 103 and 104
It discusses why disadvantaged applicants are further disadvantaged by the current system of applying to university without achieved results. Apparently disadvantaged students are more likely to have incorrect predicted grades than other students.

[Million2One]

Sorry for derailing Shadow

Haybot
Last year around 60k of the 530k students who went to university came through clearing, i.e. not much more than 10%

The vast majority of students who drop a grade or two, or gain a grade or two, do get accepted at the institutions they had already chosen

I understand that but its still a significant number of applicants (over 100K in 2015) that don't get into their firm choice.

It seems crazy that applicants have to try and work out what grades a course with published entry grades would actually , for example, if an ABB course is 'really' an AAB course or whether it would, in practice, accept BBC. Combine that with the proven randomness of predicted grades and it makes the whole system too much of a game.

Surely taking the guesswork out of it would benefit everyone.

[mummymeister]

headofthehive55 you have actually got it spot on there.

choosing your accommodation, joining the facebook group, being encouraged to see yourself there and then...... 1 UMS point and you aren't going. and that IS the reality for far too many students.

all this "cant be done" "wouldn't work" is rubbish. ANYTHING can be done if there is a will.

haybot if you are paying £9K for something then you are paying for the right to have a decent service. education isn't exempt from the need to provide for its "customers". no one is suggesting you pay your 9K and get a 2:1. what you get is shoddy, not transparent and setting kids up to feel like failures.

When the people receiving the education weren't being asked to pay twice as they are now - once through taxation (of the parents generally) and again through fees - Unis could act like they were bestowing benevolence on you by giving you a place.

Not any more. the system is broken, it isn't fit for purpose. A level students could have shorter summer holidays, less time at Easter and start uni later to make up the time lost if exam grades are published before offers are made.

and why wont unis do this? because they want their long summer holidays perhaps.

Predicted grades are often wrong and they will be worse when AS has gone. the kid with average GCSE's who then excels at A level is going to be disadvantaged.

personal statements are a complete nonsense. so many of the kids from richer backgrounds get theirs written it is untrue. hands up if you honestly, truthfully didn't read through your DC's and make suggestions.

For too long the Unis have worked within a bubble and really its about time that we burst it. There is a lot more wrong with the current system than there is right and I really hope that the ending of AS acts as some sort of catalyst. the system was fine in the 70's but that was 45 years ago with only minute numbers attending. we have to change it if we really want to get kids onto the right courses that lead them to the right jobs that we need.

wouldn't it be great if for once there was a bit of joined up thinking over this. we need more engineers so encourage kids into these courses with slightly lower grades or fees. Nope, I am not holding my breath - common sense in education is just a myth.

[Headofthehive55]

There is nothing to stop unis making unconditional offers based on GCSE grades an interview and as long as you matriculate.

But the unis aren't interested as they want the students with the highest points who might get the highest grades for their league tables. But we'd see who taught best with a more mixed intake!

It may be true that some courses even at so called top unis will let in with a dropped grade or two but that us variable. My DDs choice didn't allow one dropped grade - yet were in clearing for that subject. Therefore I conclude they didn't want the most keen students but the ones with highest grades.

The result is I have a DD that feels she is a failure. We didn't know which uni that might happen with as its so hidden.

[haybott]

and why wont unis do this? because they want their long summer holidays perhaps.

This is beyond insulting.

The admin staff work flat out during the summer to deal with accommodation, placements of students, timetabling for the next year etc.

The academic staff work flat out during the summer doing research and dealing with resits of those who failed, preparing courses for the next year, revalidating curricula etc etc. The last time I took a vacation was in 2001. I work 70 hour weeks all through the year.

[haybott]

There is nothing to stop unis making unconditional offers based on GCSE grades and interview

Most course don't interview. Typically there would be 1000 applications for a course which has 150-200 places. If you interviewed each student for half an hour by two members of staff that would be 1000 hours spent interviewing. Then there would be another 1000 hours or so discussing the results, putting candidates into order. Spread between 50 staff members we are talking about an entire working week per staff member, or equivalent one full year of academic staff time, being required to do the interviewing process. This would be a massive waste of resources.

[haybott]

we need more engineers so encourage kids into these courses with slightly lower grades or fees.

And what happens when the kids with lower grades can't actually manage to keep up with the course and drop out? Which is indeed what commonly happens with engineers who missed the required grades in maths or physics.... BTW there are already many schemes to subsidise fees for physics and engineering - industrial sponsors, Ogden Trust etc.

The solution to training more engineers is not to take students who can't manage the course but to attract more students into STEM rather than humanities.

[titchy]

Not sure I want to drive over a bridge designed by an engineer who wasn't quite up to the job...

[InformalRoman]

This is where I'm glad we're in Scotland - offers made on Highers taken in S5, so you either know you have an unconditional and can get organised or know what you have to do in S6 to get your conditional. But on the other hand, courses here are 4 years rather than 3 to allow for the fact that students could go straight to uni without doing Advanced Highers.

Remark scheme is completely different here too - you don't get marked scripts back, and can only ask for a clerical check or a marking review (not a full remark).

You can get some info on actual university admissions through FOI requests, but only if the uni compiles the necessary stats (they may not). It often makes interesting reading.

[mummymeister]

haybott good for you working 70+ hour weeks. I am self employed and I do the same. I would get onto your union if you haven't had a holiday since 2001 - 15 years.

you are obviously too close to this system to see the flaws in it if you cannot understand the massive disappointment felt by someone who is 1 UMS point off of the next grade up, in a subject that has no effect on their proposed university degree whatsoever and the Uni in question shows no regard for some pretty horrible mitigating circumstances.

lots of people work hard. that's not the issue. the issue is that the system which worked in the 70's and hasn't changed since then isn't working now.

I am not suggesting taking substandard applicants. look me in the eye and tell me that 1 UMS point makes the difference between an engineer who can cut it and one that cant.

[titchy]

But there has to be a cut off. Universities can't endlessly fill places with all those that missed by a small amount - lots of students miss by a very small amount. If they took someone who missed by 1 UMS, then the applicant who missed by 2 UMS turns around and says 'Oh but I'm only 1 UMS below that person so take me too'.

It's hugely disappointing I get that - and we will wait if the applicant goes for a remark - but you wouldn't argue with say a grammar school which selects the top 200 kids by test mark, and your kid got one below the 200th. It's bad luck, but there is always going to be someone that is disappointed.

Same as if you went for a job and make it to the final round of interviews and someone else got the job. You wouldn't expect the company to conjure up another job just because you were almost as good as the person who they offered.

[titchy]

Particularly with Engineering, if there's 20 spaces, there's 20 spaces. So the top 20 get those spaces.

[haybott]

My union? Huh? I am just too busy with work to take a holiday - it is my choice, that I choose to do the best I can for my students and give up having holidays. You were the person who said that universities took long summer holidays - as many people do, you were assuming that academics only work during students' term times.

There has to be a cutoff. Students with B grades in A level maths have a much poorer outcome on RG maths/physics/engineering degrees than those who have A grades and above. Students with low A grades also tend to have slightly poorer outcomes than those with higher A grades and above. Of course there is not much difference between 79 UMS and 80 UMS but if a course took 79 UMS then the cutoff would be there and the person who got 78 UMS would be complaining.

A course which rejects because of 1 UMS point in an irrelevant subject is over-subscribed. (This virtually never happens.) Sadly if you have precisely 100 places then unfortunately you are going to have to reject the person who is 101st on the list, even though the difference between 100 and 101 may be very small. Would the disappointment have been so much less if applications took place after results: she would still have had set her heart on this place, got her results and realised she wasn't going to be able to get in.

And in the real world after university people will be rejected for graduate schemes and jobs based on very small differences too. Some graduate employers will reject if the student gets less than a 2:i, even if the student got the highest 2:2 and just missed a 2:i.

The current admissions system is not failing. You are too close to the issue to see this.