Remarks and general marking from a teacher and examiner's POV

[Shadowboy]

I'm not new to mums net but I am a 'lurker'. I've found reading many threads in here very interesting.

I have been teaching for 10 years at GCSE and A Level only (all exam students) and I am also an examiner for 2 different exam boards and two different subjects. I team lead a paper so examiner experience is pretty good (since 2007)

Remarks- they are done by a more senior examine - TL or PE (principal examiner) depending on subject and exam board approx 30% of exam papers are sent for remarks! Most do not change but approx 10% will change (up or down) in some cases it is because the original paper was harshly or weakly marked. Occasionally it may be a computer clerical error (most exam boards use online marking/scanned scripts)

In many cases where I HAVE awarded more marks its actually due to poor handwriting on the student's part. They are often so tricky to read that the examiner can't decipher what is being written - often then unable to apply to the mark scheme. I have more time and more experience and can often 'figure out' what is being said. I really recommend those students with tiny microscopic handwriting or poor handwriting to type!

Not every single paper is double checked so sometimes standards do slip sadly. I have to sample my team 3 times (total of 30 samples) when they mark 150 papers so some will slip through.

When having a remark the new examiner doesn't know the school/sex/background so have no idea if you've asked for a paper back too or what your teacher thinks. They simply re-apply the markscheme to the work.

As a teacher I am genuinely shocked that schools are recommending remarks without script photocopies first! It's such a risk and say the mark goes up by 2/3 and puts the student from a d to a c it still doesn't show where the student went wrong if they were expected an A grade.

It saves the parent money (or the school if they are paying) but the student learns nothing. Don't forget that UMS marks can be nearly 2 x the raw mark depending on where within the mark scale the student sits. So if it is remarked and goes from a C to a B it's probably gone up ~ 5 raw marks (depending on the original score) which is about 10 UMS marks, so it's just as easy to lose a grade as it is to gain one.

[Headofthehive55]

IT seems to me we have created a market where some universities are seen as so much more desirable than others and therefore created little leeway.

I think we have done it ourselves by talking about RG unis and good unis - as opposed to bad ones? Perhaps we should talk of more popular unis as in effect this is what they are.

• the focus is so much on where you study, whereas I think the real issue is what you study.

[Coffeewith1sugar]

I've asked the dear nephew as I'm not entirely convinced too now after your post. As it makes sense what you say. But he says he is definately sure this is what has happened. Nephew is also a smart intelligent boy going to a top uni so I just don't get that feeling he's telling porkies. Maybe he got some facts wrong and it got lost in translation with his friend. I'm leaving it as a mystery

[haybott]

I have never, ever known a student to be rejected in January and then receive an offer in August. Students who do better than expected can apply again the next year and this is what they are expected to do. Before applying again it is advisable to look at the feedback from the first application - just having the required grades does not its own mean that you will get an offer.

So adjustment is not just unusual - it doesn't happen at all, in my experience.

BTW 4 A stars is not on its own exceptional for a STEM subject anyhow - lots of students would still be rejected with those grades.

[Coffeewith1sugar]

I know alot of people have said that Oxbridge don't do adjustments. But my nephew who goes to a well known independent school said that this year one of his friends had managed to get a place at Oxford for a stem subject with 4A* on the day of results in which he did not get a conditional offer for. He was rejected after interviews. But on the day of results, he had achieved far better than what was predicted, the school rung Oxford uni that had rejected him and they took him on. Which I thought was very unusual. This isn't the first time the school has managed to do this. It also happened last year with another pupil. I don't class it as adjustment really as he failed at interview so didn't satisfy them in that area to give him a offer. I didn't believe my sister last year when she mentioned this. But this year with my nephew who's friends with the guy who got the offer on the day of results. I'm pretty confident on his word with that it has happened. So there must other special circumstances that one can do to win a place at Oxford. Maybe it's not unusual, its just you never really here it happen.

[sendsummer]

Agree with haybott. Teaching staff who have a recent doctorate from Oxbridge may be familiar with their ex colleagues at Oxbridge but their judgement could easily not be relevant to a particular pupil. The only advice that is probably worth having is not to apply to the same college as other pupils from the same school and even that may not be appropriate for a very strong candidate.

[haybott]

However, I do find it frustrating that some (presumably elite) schools are able to share detailed information about different colleges that probably give their candidates an advantage whilst the vast majority of kids only have ever the prospectus and a visit if they're lucky to help them choose. The party line from Oxbridge that it doesn't matter where you apply is patently inaccurate.

With twenty years of experience at Oxbridge I would still say that it doesn't matter much where you apply, because of the pooling system.

Colleges don't have collective policies, as different subjects make their decisions separately. I simply don't believe that there is useful detailed information available to elite schools that other schools don't have. E.g. experience of sending a student for English at a specific college would gives no bearing on sending a student for other subjects. Staff at colleges change all the time also so experiences rapidly become out of date. My experience is that staff/pupils from elite schools might think they have inside knowledge but they really don't.

[whynewnham]

Up the bracket what an awful experience for your daughter, it does seem very harsh. Which college was it?
However, I do find it frustrating that some (presumably elite) schools are able to share detailed information about different colleges that probably give their candidates an advantage whilst the vast majority of kids only have ever the prospectus and a visit if they're lucky to help them choose. The party line from Oxbridge that it doesn't matter where you apply is patently inaccurate.
A friend's daughter was taken for an Arts subject with a high B grade in their third subject last year so it can happen but no consolation I know.

[sendsummer]

upthebracket I can understand you being angry as a reaction especially when the exam marking does not reflect your DD's ability and track record. However to be fair to the Oxford college they often consider the aptitude test score, interview score and school background as well as UMS in near misses. If she performed very highly in both the former or did not have access to the best teaching then it does seem a college to avoid for that subject.

[upthebracket]

Thanks for the support- very nice of you all and much appreciated. She is going to her insurance and I know that all will be well, just so angry at the way Oxford have treated her.

Hell will freeze over before her school recommends anyone to apply to that particular college again, and schools do talk to each other. Reputations cut both ways. My DD said yesterday that to Oxford she was just an anonymous interchangeable fee source, and I guess she was right.

I just have no faith in the marking at all and the whole 'review' thing is just risible.A few years back at my DD's school, one brilliant girl got a low B in an essay subject. Paper 'remarked' , no change, lost her place at Cambridge. School , utterly bemused, applied for her script back and asked for an example of what a high scoring essay looked like. The exam board sent them back this girl's essay as a exemplary model answer....honest to God that's a true story.

Hey ho. Am now just trying to support my girl as best I can, but just wish we had never gone near Oxford in the first place. Her insurance uni would have been her first choice and she would have been spared this whole hideous ordeal.

[mummymeister]

upthebracket here here!

this is exactly how we are feeling. 1 that's right a whole 1 UMS mark off of DC's firm and they would not offer a place. and it wasn't in the subject to be studied either. so going to the insurance instead.

I have no faith in any of it and fear it is colouring the judgement of all of my other DC's none of whom want to go through this now having seen what happened to eldest DC.

the marking system is a farce and all the exam boards know it. that is why they have changed the remarking system because they knew a huge number of errors would be thrown up by it. scandalous that they are allowed to move the goal posts like this.

one of my friends used to be a marker and has been for many years. they refused this year when they saw the remarking rules because they believed that they just weren't fair.

the number of highly qualified and experienced markers is dwindling and not surprising when you see the huge amount of time they are expected to commit and the pressure that they are under.

the system imo is broken. it was designed for the 1970's not 46 years later.

We looked at Oxbridge for my eldest but at the interview stage DC decided it wasn't the one and I am really glad that DC did this as I hated it.

we will certainly be looking at the USA in future. the days when their fees were sky high and ours were free have well and truly gone.

[Coffeewith1sugar]

Sorry to hear your dd missing out on her offer, especially with being so close. My DD missed hers last year by 2ums that was for Bath obviously not in the same league as Oxford. She wasn't devastated as insurance was also a good uni. But I know she would have been gutted had it have been Oxford no doubt.

But I guess because Oxford only can take a relative small number of applicants compared to other uni's, competition will be fierce and they have to be rather ruthless as they just don't have the means to take any missed grades. But I can see the frustration having missed out from a A level that has a high level of subjectivity in its marking. And now a new remarking system put into place that can only mean more students missing out uni places unfairly. Is your dd going to insurance or taking a gap year to reasess things? I guess reapplying is out of the question?

[FordPerfect]

upthebracket I am so sorry - we have had a similar experience with DS missing his offer by a couple of raw marks in one paper. At his school there have been a few who have missed their offers, one I believe got AAB when the offer was 3 As and the B wasn't in the subject the student wanted to study. It seems odd to place greater reliance on the A Level marking than your own judgement formed in the course of several interviews together with entrance tests. All sympathy to you and your DD.

[upthebracket]

My dd missed her Oxford offer by 1 raw mark in three subjects, all in arts subjects.Needed 1 A* Had a 'review' of marks, surprise surprise, no change this year and Oxford won't budge. Why bother with interviews and admissions tests at all if actually all they care about are UMS scores awarded by a system I have no longer have any faith in? She went to a very good school which sends many to Oxbridge and they are just absolutely horrified at the way both the exam system and Oxford have treated her. My advice? In all honesty apply to the US. More of the brightest and best from my daughter's school are applying there each year, less reliant on A levels and offer more scholarships.I just feel utterly heartbroken for my DD and would advise prospective applicants and their parents to think very carefully before exposing themselves to the whole Oxbridge lottery. I would never have let my child go within 100 miles of an institution that has treated her so shabbily had I but known.

[mummymeister]

AS grades seem to go up more readily than a2's from my (limited) experience. fortunately my DC has moved on from the remark and is off to insurance Uni in a few weeks. it has all left a pretty bad taste in our mouths and I know it has had a massive effect on all of my other DC who have been watching the stress of it all in horror.

[shirleyknotanotherbot]

AS Biology review of marking (Edexcel), requested Monday, received today. Needed 1 mark for an A. Both papers up 1, so B to A

AS Chemistry (AQA). Needed 5 for an A (so a bit of a long shot). 1 paper up by 1, the other up by 2. No grade change.

So there is hope :)

[BoneyBackJefferson]

Shadowboy
"The exams office need proof that they need to type. Learning support have strict guidelines on typing applications. We are also able to apply for a scribe or use Dragon- a voice activated software system"

yes, I know the guidelines, hence my point that you have to have them in place before the exams, you can't just show up on the day and request them.

[Headofthehive55]

Yes titchy the uni sending the email introducing the student rep etc for the course was sent by the uni. Students don't ignore them as they are trying to do everything right. I think it's bad practise in the sense that you are talking about people here. Each one is someone with feelings and hopes. Just as there are ways to tell someone their illness is serious, there are ways to tell people bad news and that is not helpful.

[Shadowboy]

Bonybackjefferson
The exams office need proof that they need to type. Learning support have strict guidelines on typing applications. We are also able to apply for a scribe or use Dragon- a voice activated software system. Whilst it won't help them in later life it will certainly help them get a better grade. Before I team led papers I remember logging out of the marking system when I saw a 'bad handwriting' script in the hope someone else would mark it!!

[mummymeister]

Titchy - you have to start from the premise that you can make something work. how about:

GCSE's finish early June
4 - 6weeks from early/mid June - mid July on A level course.
take a levels also in May so 4 - 6 weeks earlier than currently to take account of the 4 / 6 weeks added at the start of the first A level year.
This gives all of June to mark the papers and give the results out first week of July.
this gives all of July, August and most of September to sort out what uni to go to.

It means more exam markers or marking and taking exams in a different way.
it means kids giving up their last summer to look around unis but I imagine people would look around fewer only targeting those that they had a chance of getting in to.
unis could scrap personal statements so just go purely on the grades. personal statements have been undermined by rich parents paying for someone to do them for their kids. they are meaningless really with lots of courses apparently not even looking at them.

yes, it means more resources in some areas and doing things in a different way but why not?

I know its the govt that introduced fees but its time that parents started making much more of a fuss about what they are paying for isn't it?

[InformalRoman]

And 25% of kids don't get three As

I worded that badly. The proportion of A and A* grades at A level was 25%.

As opposed to 9% in 1985.

[titchy]

Most don't delve into UMS? And 25% of kids don't get three As

[titchy]

You do realise this is Government policy not our policy? We used to get that amount from the Government till they took it away...

I don't disagree that applying with known grades is a bad idea as it goes. But how would that work? Exams taken in January? What to do with kids between Feb and October then? The Governemnt wants to keep em eduction not boot them out after a year and a bit of sixth form? You'd also have to make university degrees a year longer - so who funds that? And don't say they manage in Scotland - Scottish universities are on their knees. Keep exams in May or June, apply after? Wow you're asking a lot of exam boards! Start university a year later? Again what do these poor unemployable kids do for a year? Who funds the universities for that one year where no one starts a degree?

[mummymeister]

to some extent the new 1-9 grading in GCSE's is supposed to overcome the top end loading of grades and by stringing them out a bit more will highlight the top 5% rather than the top 25%. no one really knows yet how this is all going to work. I always get a bit of a "spinal tap" moment when thinking of the new GCSE grades - the bit where his amp goes up to 11 even though it should be 1- 10 but perhaps that is just my age and I digress.

I suppose if the 1 - 9 works with GCSE then they will extend it to A level but it would then make the grade boundaries for some subjects really small.

I think that those working in Unis are really trying to defend the indefensible. I don't know why you are all so adverse to change. when you start charging £9K for something in addition to the amount paid by parents in taxes then I am afraid as an organisation you are going to come under more pressure and more scrutiny precisely because it isn't "free" any more.

I don't know how anyone can take the stance that the current system of guesstimating grades is better than knowledge of what you have and picking a course and uni based on facts and not guesstimates. It might be easier for the organisation. it might be more comfortable to do the same old, same old, same as you have always done. but that doesn't make it right.

my social media feeds have gone bonkers with parents all saying the same as I am. even those whose kids have got into their first choices.

[InformalRoman]

But if it was harder to achieve top grades, you wouldn't need to be delving into UMS?

[haybott]

But one can use A stars (far fewer than 25%) and detailed UMS in modules can also be requested (Cambridge maths and some other courses request this).