Bath, not a Russell group uni, is this a problem for employers?

[tropicalfish]

Hi,
DD has an offer for biochemistry at Bath but is probably going to find a job outside the science sector once she graduates, probably in a well paid City/tech job. She feels that alot of employers, or rather people in charge of recruiting for their department are biased towards recruiting from Russell groups and hence going to Bath would place her at a disadvantage. This is probably due to the significant competition for jobs. What has been the experience of people on the forum with respect to Russell and non Russell Group universities? I'm certainly not saying that Bath is not a great university, just that people show bias towards Russell group graduates.
Many thanks,
TF

[MovingOnUpMovingOnOut]

Depending what sort of city job your daughter wants Bath may well be on their preferred university list.

Other very well respected graduate employers don't care where your degree is from just so long as you have one and didn't get a 3rd. They do tend to take a more holistic approach when recruiting so she'd do well to take on some positions of leadership or responsibility while at university.

[mayfly66]

**In other words, a 2.1 from Leeds (RG group) in English will be comparable to the same from Bradford (University Alliance group) and Bath Spa (Million + group) and Cumbria (GuildHE group) and Essex (1994 group) and Aberdeen (unaffiliated).

I am struggling a little with this. If we assume that:

1. Teaching quality is equal across each of these Institutions (and I'm pretty sure that's a rather bold assumption) and
   

1. The calibre (raw academic ability) of undergraduates at each of them is - broadly speaking - directly correlated with the entry requirements (RG entry requirements are generally higher than non-RG)
   

• then isn't it a reasonable conclusion that - using your example - an English graduate from the University of Leeds is likely to possess a higher ability in that subject than his/her counterpart from Cumbria? Are you really saying the Oxbridge degree (in any subject) is equivalent to a degree from Cumbria...?
  

Higher Education Institutions - like society and people - are not equal. Some are better at certain things than others. That doesn't make it right or wrong it's just the way it is and for certain, selective careers employers do have a view on certain universities (whether RG or non-RG).

If you don't believe that take a peek at the websites of some law firms. They're pretty explicit at which Institutions they target.

Any why wouldn't they...?

[whatwouldrondo]

mayfly If you don't believe that take a peek at the websites of some law firms. They're pretty explicit at which Institutions they target. Some links please? I have heard off the record of a couple of law firms who unofficially sift on institution, and that in the context of partners thinking it was lazy and unnecessarily restricting the talent they recruit. However most law firms do recognise that. Do you mean the institutions they visit? That is something else entirely, deciding where to focus limited marketing resources is different to limiting recruitment options.


As repeated ad nauseum below all that the label Russell Group discriminates is the universities who sent a representative to the meeting in the Russell Square hotel to establish a lobbying group of research intensive universities, or who coughed up £££££s to join that group later. It is therefore not a measure of quality, there are non Russell Group universities and courses that are more highly ranked than Russell Group ones, lots of them. Bath in particular is an example, and one that demonstrates that most employers realise this, having an impressive list of companies that not only do their students gain employment with but actively foster links for sandwich placements etc.

And most companies recruiting graduates are interested in recruiting those graduates who have the qualities they have identified that they require within their organisation. They will sift applications based on those qualities on academic results, work experience etc., the institution may or may not be a factor, but only one factor usually, not a deal breaker,. Indeed many employers would be institution blind and increasingly the starting point of the sift is online testing, and then telephone interviewing. So if a candidate was from Cumbria, had 3A*s at A level, had demonstrated the qualities being sought in their work and life experience and had scored highly in online tests and telephone interviews then they might well come to the recruitment process with a head start over the applicant from a Russell Group university. Those qualities might be entirely unrelated to institution, for instance many city firms are now seeking graduates with evidence they have a global perspective, and are looking for graduates with language skills or experience of other cultures. So not only is the Russell Group not a discriminator of quality in graduates, it is not in any way a discriminator of the qualities that employers are looking for.

[whatwouldrondo]

Of course there do exist a number of tables that attempt to measure quality through a varying combination of the UCAS scores of those on the course, student satisfaction, research ranking, and graduate employment prospects. How we perceive quality is subjective so we will take from those tables accordingly but any of those measures it seems to me are more relevant than the Russell Group label and so it proves by applying them.

[mayfly66]

Whatwould I didn't need the lecture on what the RG is or why it was formed but thank you for taking the trouble to spell it out, anyway

I'm too inept with the technology to insert a link but try a Google search around "UK universities targeted by law firms" and look at a few results. In particular: www.chambers student.co.uk › media

Your point about distinguishing between "visiting" and "targeting" is subtle. Yes, they "visit" for a number of reasons (eg size of student population) and because they have finite resources with which to recruit but are you really suggesting there is no correlation? I neither said not inferred that a non-RG graduate would NOT be employed by a particular law firm, merely that they focus their efforts (target) a particular group of universities.

Your response also fails to reflect my caveat that - generally speaking - there is a positive correlation between the entry requirements and attainment of students entering university. Oxbridge I suspect have few if any students with less than AAA but Cunbria probably has few if any with AAA so your example of a Cumbria grad having entered there with the grades you use in your example is fairly implausible. Not impossible, I agree but certainly not consistent with the generality of the point I was making.

I'm not suggesting that RG is the be all and end all of the list of "good" universities. Clearly, there are others but to suggest that all degrees are equal - as you did - is surely not credible and it is certainly not supported by the stats available in relation to the recruitment patterns of top law firms, for example.

[mayfly66]

Try this Whateould

www.legalcheek.com/2014/07/oxbridge-and-russell-group-graduates-dominate-latest-trainee-intake-of-top-law-firms/

[mayfly66]

And this

www.chambersstudent.co.uk/media/1067/what_is_a_good_university.pdf

Pasting links: DS2 has shown me the light...

[BeaufortBelle]

I've read the full thread OP. My advice is unchanged from when I read your first post.

You have to let your daughter follow her own head and heart. This is about her future and these are her decisions to make. You can guide but she has the final say. She has the greatest chance of success and happiness if she is allowed to make her own decisions and given the freedom and information to do so.

Also, you can't assume that what she thi js she wants to do with the rest of her life at 18 will be the same as when she is 21. They gave to have the freedom to make mistakes and learn from them.

Trust her and let her be happy.

[mayfly66]

Great advice IMHO BB

[lljkk]

You guys don't need to argue about law graduate prospects, the information on law graduate prospects is freely available in league tables.

Yes RG Unis dominate the top 10. On the other hand, there are 100 institutions offering law as a subject to study at Uni, and there are plenty of non-RG Unis in the top 40.

I know this is a radical idea... but some people studying law don't want to become lawyers. They just want a good analytical thinking degree. There are other career paths to follow after doing law. At number 40 on the Prospects list, UWE-Bristol brags that 93% of its law graduates are in employment or more study within 6 months. In an age of "no guaranteed job for life", 93% ain't terrible.

[BeaufortBelle]

Some people who think they want to be lawyers at 18 realise three years of it is enough lljkk

[lljkk]

OP: on the graduate prospects link, there's no biochemistry category but Bath is TOP (number 1) of table for graduate prospects for chemistry, and 8/99 for biology. So I would think biochemistry at Bath is an extremely secure choice wrt graduate prospects.

[lljkk]

xpost... lol@BB.

[Piemernator]

I have worked at two RG Unuversities and studied at one.

One of my ex students got a job in Currys another is now a diplomat.

I'm not fretting about which University my DS attends. The one thing that exists till this day are what contacts you have.My housemates BF was taking law and he went to work at his Fathers firm. DS has to do work experience in a couple of months and will be working at a national research centre because his Fathers friend is head of it. I had a student who worked for the UN for the summer because her Aunt worked there.

Life is absolutely unfair.

The RG Group are just a load of vice chancellors that got together as a campaigning lobby in a hotel in Russell Square.

Let your DD decide, I have seen too many students unhappy because their parents forced their choice. Higher drop out rates ensue.

[Lilymaid]

To respond to OP's original question - Bath is a highly rated university. It isn't RG, probably as it was too small when the RG was formed. With good A Level grades and a good degree her DD will not be disadvantaged in the job market.

A Level grades do matter for jobs -- DS2 has just gone through the grad job hunt grind for city jobs and very many require a minimum of 3 A grades at A2 as well as a minimum 2.1 first degree. He found that his A Level grades barred him from many of the larger recruiters despite ending up with a good MSc in a relevant (for the financial sector) subject from one of the more highly rated RG universities.

There's a recent survey (possibly by the Sutton Trust) on graduate recruitment. Many who replied indicated that they only looked at graduates from universities they knew/ were their traditional sources of graduates as they felt more comfortable about these graduates and that they would fit in. Hmmm ...

[whatwouldrondo]

mayfly I asked for links for your assertion that law firms were explicit about the institutions they target not which universities the students they recruit went to. The links you gave don't surprise me at all and are probably only a little more skewed than most big graduate recruiters. Russell, Group universities do account for a large percentage of academically successful students and some RG universities are only just behind Oxbridge in terms of selectivity so of course their graduates are attractive to employers, all other things (evidence they have the qualities to do the job) being equal. Add in to that that some graduate recruiters, particularly law firms, have very unprofessional subjective recruitment processes that allow their managers to bring the sort of pre existing prejudices about universities and other aspects of background possibly influenced by the Russell Group marketing, we have seen displayed on this thread into play. However I suspect those perceptions would actually be attached to universities like Durham, UCL or Bristol, not Swansea, and that would be manifest if you were to look at this via the recruitment levels from various universities. The Russell Group contains some universities and courses that are a lot less selective than some non RG universities and courses. To my knowledge one of the big city law firms sift out everyone who did not go to Oxbridge, Durham, Warwick, UCL, LSE and Bristol, but they are not explicit about it in their recruitment and as I say are coming under fire from other partners for being lazy and unprofessional because they did not go to those universities but somewhere though RG much lower down the rankings I am sure though that Bath would score more highly that Swansea on almost every measure of quality including subjective prejudice ( and this is no criticism of Swansea university or students, just simply that it is less selective )

However most graduate recruiters have as I say competence based recruitment processes that attempt to assess graduates as objectively as they can on evidence they have the qualities they are looking for, and sift on different criteria that would provide that evidence such as online testing and would regard it as unnecessarily restricting the pool of talent to sift on institution. As an interviewer you are trained in techniques to facilitate the candidate to provide the evidence you need to justify their recruitment , and you cannot decide to recruit a candidate without that evidence from a number of sources, psychometric testing, role playing, management exercises and interviews. I (and DH ) probably have probably been involved in the recruitment of graduates to our city firms that in the main came from the top 20 universities by whatever ranking you chose , and that would include Bath, and you probably could probably get a similar split between RG and non RG just simply because of the number of too 20 universities happen to be in the Russell Group. However that is not to say we haven't recruited some excellent candidates from non RG universities, particularly Bath, and even from those that are not particularly selective, and experience therefore tells graduate recruiters it is worth casting your net widely. My example of Cumbria may have been extreme because I agree it would not generally be recruiting AAA candidates but it was making that point.

My comment on the background of the Russell Group was not aimed at you, but more in general because so many posters, in spite of lots of other posters having repeated it, are clearly implicitly linking RG with quality. Given that there are actually more objective measures of quality that is just lazy thinking, I am sure you would agree

[whatwouldrondo]

This is how you get to be graduate employer of the year

"To solve important problems we need diverse talent. So at PwC we employ people with a vast array of backgrounds and experiences – meaning they think differently from one another and apply varying approaches to problem solving. And we’re committed to helping every one of them build a rewarding career and achieve their full potential."

The skills they look for

www.pwc.co.uk/careers/student/applying/pwc-professional.html

The recruitment process

www.pwc.co.uk/careers/student/applying/selection-process.html

Removing UCAS points from the sift

www.pwc.co.uk/careers/student/applying/ucas-tariff-changes.html

[HocusWireless]

I never heard my Ds or his friends refer to "RG" when they were applying to universities. They just decided what they wanted to study , where was good for it, and what their chances were. Somewhat simplistic maybe but not a bad way of going about it.

[mayfly66]

Do you still maintain your previous fiction that all degrees are equal, irrespective of which university awarded them, Whatwould?

I'm guessing you work in/come from an HR background...

[whatwouldrondo]

I didn't argue that mayfly , that came from an academic who was arguing that the theory behind degree validation is that all degrees are supposed to be levelled according to workload and skills content. I can only comment that contrary to popular perception my experience of universities forty years apart is that now degrees have a higher workload and skills content but I would guess there are all sorts of variables between degree courses and universities although they are conforming to a template in theory. My DD's science degree was certainly regarded within the university she was at as third in terms of workload and difficulty behind Medicine and Architecture. However I wouldn't assume that an institution further down the rankings was challenging their students less in terms of difficulty or workload, they might in response to having a less able cohort, or on the other hand on some of the more vocational courses I know that a combination of employer influence, the professionals who teach on them and the requirements of professional bodies like chartered institutes mean that they are more demanding than some academic degrees . Of course the degree of challenge in a degree should in theory manifest itself in the quality of the intellectual skills of the applicant.

And no I am not an HR specialist, like most graduate recruiters I was involved in the interviewing as an internal customer for graduates with the experience of what we required. Again, like all good employers my organisation made sure that all it's managers had HR skills as part of their development towards equipping them to be effective senior managers. It is why it is always a compulsory module on MBAs.

[whatwouldrondo]

But what I would argue very strongly is that having a Biochemistry degree from Bath would certainly not be a problem for employers compared to a Russell Group degree, and might quite possibly give a graduate an advantage. Bath graduates are if anything overrepresented in a lot of city sectors especially the Big 4 Accountancy / Consultancy firms and the banks.

[jeanne16]

No one had pointed out that Warwick is not RG either and yet it regularly appears as one of the top units in the UK.

Having said that, it is without doubt important to go to the best uni that will accept you as this will help job offer down the line.

[Merd]

Warwick's a Russell Group, always has been! I think that right there tells you something - there are 26 of them, which is what, a 5th of universities? And only a few are very well known as Russell Group don't you know...

[Jeremysfavouriteaunt]

Warwick is definitely in the Russell Group.

[Flisspaps]

BeaufortBelle it's only the DD's decision if she's paying for it and driving herself there apparently (OP said this to me further up; the DD's preference is St Andrews)