A bit worried about DS2 (2016 application)

[EmmaWoodlouse]

Having 2 kids only 1 year apart has its advantages but having to go through all the uni application process 2 years in a row isn't one of them!

DS2 didn't do all that well in his AS levels but is aiming for three Bs at A level, which we think he can probably manage if he makes an effort. My concern is that he says he wants to do a subject that he's never particularly shown an interest in in the past - I think at some level he just thinks it's the most attainable with the subjects and grades he's likely to get. I don't think he's going to be able to write a particularly good personal statement though, as he's not going to have much to say about why he's interested in this subject, or how he's been pursuing this interest. (DS1 had done a few activities outside school that tied in with his chosen subject, DS2 hasn't really done any.) I think they'll be able to tell that he's not passionate about it, and with the not amazing predicted grades, he's not going to get many offers.

If I had the right to tell him what to do (which I don't believe I do) I would probably strongly urge him to take a year out so he has longer to work out what he really wants to do. I don't think DH is particularly keen on this idea, but it doesn't really matter because DS isn't either. He is adamant he just wants to go to uni even though he doesn't give any impression of really being very interested in it. He's supposed to be researching courses but never does much about it unless DH is breathing down his neck - so far he's signed up for one open day very close to home.

What, if anything, would you be saying to him him these circumstances?

[PrincessTooty]

He sounds like he is in that irritating range where his grades aren't quite good enough for the higher tariff Unis but are potentially on the high side for point Unis.
If he ends up doing better than expected on results day then he can go into adjustment - it's a different process to clearing and you can have your new offer firmed within hours of results.
My DS 'traded up' on results day.

[Millymollymama]

Moon - I do not look down on "lesser" universities - your phrase! My DD is at one! A vocational one that is very difficult to get into. However, lots of people give out advice about Engineering without realising the qualification route is lengthy. The best employers can still be choosy and my DHs firm would not be thinking BBB at A level was the profile that would lead to success in their field of Engineering. They are consulting engineers so they may require someone with a different profile to a manufacturing environment. Horses for courses. I gather that Jaguar Land Rover are very competitive to get into.

It is also misleading people to say some universities are excellent, when they are not that hot. I completely see why they exist but employers do know that some universities require top grades and others are in clearing. It is also true that the best engineers are naturally good at it. They are almost born to be engineers. The best courses enhance that talent.

I had no idea my alleged views are so well known and despised! I have never heard of you, Moon!

[Headofthehive55]

What's a good employer? The best employer is not always the most well known or the best brand. I certainly don't confuse a good employer with well known. They are not the same.

I am sorry to see that your DH's firm milly do not think a profile with BBB would lead to success. I think that is rather short sighted of them. Much can change in those years after A levels. Lots of people succeed after a rocky start and once in employment the goalposts do have a habit of changing.

I also think you shouldn't worry too much about things taking longer to achieve. It is far better to get there eventually than give up and not get there at all.

As for which unis are excellent, that's a matter of preference depending on what you value and the choice you have available. The university which meets those criteria would be the excellent choice. Not the one you can't get into. That would be a poor university to choose.

Not everyone achieves brilliant grades, but there is still a good future out there for them to enjoy. Sometimes you have to work with what you have, not hanker after what you don't and make the best of it.

[homebythesea]

That sounds positive Emma

Did the careers teacher talk about doing the UCAS form? You will know this already having gone through it before with your older DC but he needs to also get reading etc for stuff to put in his PS. I don't know what the actual deadline is because my DS school is putting the UCAS applications in by half term at the latest, and some local schools are already in the system, but obviously that needs to be out into the mix along with the schoolwork!

[EmmaWoodlouse]

She did talk about his PS a bit - I mentioned that I had been wondering whether he should get some work experience so he had something to write about, and she said that although it wouldn't hurt, it was acceptable just to talk about the aspects of his A level subjects that interested him and how it might relate to his course. So for example he could talk about the tech project he's been doing, how he researched it, what he's learnt from it, etc. I think last year they had an internal deadline of about 15 December but one of the teachers said it would be a good idea to have it completed by the end of November, so they can suggest any improvements they think he needs to make.

DS1 had done some tutoring in his subject and obviously that was a useful thing to write, but you can't do tutoring in something you haven't actually studied yet!

[PrincessTooty]

If you look at the applications to offers ratios for the actual courses he is thinking of applying to you might find that almost everyone gets an offer which may (or may not influence) how much time he puts into his PS. Obviously he should still do it properly but with some courses you are practically guaranteed an offer.

[Ricardian]

She did talk about his PS a bit

There is a very interesting research paper which has been accepted by several conferences and journals with, shall we we, less than rigorous reviewing criteria. You can read the paper here:

www.scs.stanford.edu/~dm/home/papers/remove.pdf

and an account of one of its acceptances here:

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/nov/25/journal-accepts-paper-requesting-removal-from-mailing-list

(Warning: contains a rude word).

I wouldn't recommend using it as the model of a personal statement for a UCAS-points degree course, but it would be interesting to try. As PrincessTooty says, for most of them essentially everyone that applies who has the vaguest chance of meeting the offer will get an offer. The idea that random 280-point courses in ex-polys are carefully reading personal statements is a dubious as the idea that central admissions in universities making AAA offers are carefully reading personal statements. There are exceptions, doesn't apply to all courses, etc, etc.

Personal statements matter in some circumstances. But a lot of them time, they don't.

[Millymollymama]

When looking for courses for DD2, we noticed that lots of the UCAS points offered actually stipulated that you must get an A level in a certain preferred subject at a certain grade. Whilst the points offers may appear low, the subject preferred can be quite a high grade. Having very low grades, even then, does not always make up the point score.

I totally agree, headoftehive, that good employers are not necessfrily the headline names. However, Engineering employers must provide the required level of post degree training to get the young person qualified to Incorporated or Chartered Engineer status and be recognised by the body awarding the qualification. Therefore working for Joe Bloggs may not be any good, except for experience. These day, qualified status does mean a better salary - and so it should. It takes years to get it.

DH does have employees who take longer because they are BEng people from "lesser universities" but experience has taught him that in order to succeed in a consultancy the candidates do need grasp concepts quickly and these are often not taught in any university in a useful way. Some of the candidates who have been out for a year in industry are very good, but their university course must be good too. Unfortunartely, young people can be very "spoon fed" at some universities and the world of consultancy is not like that. You are not given all the information you need to design something but always there are mentors to guide young people through that. However, not all are able to progress within the company. I agree that maturity can help but if you are not a natural at understanding how a building works in 3d and the stresses on the components of it then all the degrees in the world do not help. Being bright often means a quick grasp of the necessary concepts. Also, designing buildings cannot be wrong. It is too dangerous! Just recently DH had an engineer who deigned the steel frame of a building that was so oversized it was outside the architect's plan for the building. Yes, it was too big. Common sense is an element too.

Young people get pushed into engineeing thinking it is all widgets and factories, and low grades are OK. It is a professional career. In Germany being a Chartered Engineer has a professional title. We just think of engineers as the person who fixes machines. It is not much different to being a doctor.

[Headofthehive55]

Yes it's much better if you are quick and clever and have the fantastic A levels to back it up, not everyone does however, perhaps a concept that you have yet to deal with?

I do believe in people growing though - some people at 18 have not reached academic maturity and they can go on to do much better than their A levels predict. No so sure that the difference between a B and an A is always so predictive in putting you into a good/ poor candidate. In can be one ums.

I know of several engineers who did very poorly in their A levels, but have gone on to have good careers. I believe it's still worthwhile to try even through you might not have the best grades as it's often surprising some years down the line who succeeds and who is still the basic engineer. Promotion is often in part down to other factors, not always being the best engineer.

[EmmaWoodlouse]

Thanks hive - and in fact DS is very young within the school year, not that it would excuse not doing his best, but perhaps he was not quite as "ready" at the start of this term at only just 17 as his brother was last year at nearly 18.

However I'm really here to say that ImperialBlether's idea seems to have really grabbed him. His first reaction on looking at the architectural engineering course was enthusiastic, but now he's been on the "what various jobs are really like" site his careers teacher told him about, he seems pretty sure that that's what appeals to him most. It turns out the university we are going to visit tomorrow also does this subject, so he'll get a chance to talk to real live students (and teachers) of it and see if he's still keen before we go to any more open days. He can certainly talk about it as if he knows what he's talking about!

[Headofthehive55]

No I certainly don't think of engineers as people who fixes machines milly. Certainly it very much like being a doctor. In fact my DH is a doctor of engineering!

[Headofthehive55]

Glad your son is gaining enthusiasm from the prospect of an open day emma hope he has a good day!

[EmmaWoodlouse]

He's still very keen on architectural engineering after the open day, and has been revising for his Maths test (which isn't till Friday) this afternoon. I think he finally gets what all the work and the predicted grades are for!

[Leeds2]

Well Done to the poster who suggested architectural engineering! I am glad it has grabbed DS's interest.

[TinklyLittleLaugh]

BBB grades are a bit frustrating aren't they? Many Universities seem to ask for 3As or 3Cs. With engineering, or anything sciencey, a sandwich year will vastly improve your DS's initial employability. If my kid was doing engineering I would encourage him/her to focus on courses with a sandwich year.

[EmmaWoodlouse]

Just a little update for those who were kind enough to comment and give suggestions for DS2. He sent off his application just before the end of term, listing 4 unis, all for architectural engineering, which he remains very enthusiastic about. They all included a year's placement. He's just had his first reply, an offer from JSU which is actually a bit lower than the 3 Bs he's hoping for. There's another uni he liked better so this means he could potentially keep JSU as a sensible insurance offer if he gets one from his first choice.

Incidentally, the place he prefers is the same place his brother is (though doing a different subject) which was something I initially wasn't sure about, but have come round to seeing advantages in. It is just the right distance away from where we live that the boys can live away from home and get some independence (which is working out well for DS1 so far), but if we do need to see each other, it's not as time-consuming/expensive as it might have been.

It feels like DS2 has really pulled himself together now he knows what he wants to do - he's studying a lot more and DH, whose area of expertise is in the same sort of subjects, thinks he sounds much more confident and knowledgeable when they talk about them.

[loooopo]

Great news - just needed the spark of something that interests him to get motivated and focused - isnt MN wonderful! Good luck to him.

[Headofthehive55]

That's good to hear!

[GasLIghtShining]

Good news