A bit worried about DS2 (2016 application)

[EmmaWoodlouse]

Having 2 kids only 1 year apart has its advantages but having to go through all the uni application process 2 years in a row isn't one of them!

DS2 didn't do all that well in his AS levels but is aiming for three Bs at A level, which we think he can probably manage if he makes an effort. My concern is that he says he wants to do a subject that he's never particularly shown an interest in in the past - I think at some level he just thinks it's the most attainable with the subjects and grades he's likely to get. I don't think he's going to be able to write a particularly good personal statement though, as he's not going to have much to say about why he's interested in this subject, or how he's been pursuing this interest. (DS1 had done a few activities outside school that tied in with his chosen subject, DS2 hasn't really done any.) I think they'll be able to tell that he's not passionate about it, and with the not amazing predicted grades, he's not going to get many offers.

If I had the right to tell him what to do (which I don't believe I do) I would probably strongly urge him to take a year out so he has longer to work out what he really wants to do. I don't think DH is particularly keen on this idea, but it doesn't really matter because DS isn't either. He is adamant he just wants to go to uni even though he doesn't give any impression of really being very interested in it. He's supposed to be researching courses but never does much about it unless DH is breathing down his neck - so far he's signed up for one open day very close to home.

What, if anything, would you be saying to him him these circumstances?

[EmmaWoodlouse]

Well his AS results were BBDD and he's keeping up the subjects he got BDD in. He is definitely capable of BBB in theory, we think he got a bit lazy and complacent with his ASs. I think we'll find out what his official predicted grades are at his parents' evening, which it tomorrow.

[2rebecca]

At many unis it's easy to transfer from beng to MEng if you do well in the first year. At Strathclyde if you get over 70% you can move up and may be demoted on the MEng if you get below this. Many overseas students prefer the BEng then MSc route to charter hood as that is more recognised as a masters in some countries. The heriot watt general engineering 1 year course then allows you to start in year 2 of a specialised course so you have a mech eng chem eng etc BEng at the end of it. Being Scotland it's 4 years not 3 but English students just pay tuition fees for 3.

[homebythesea]

So at parents evening you need to ask how he can turn his D's into B's. Retaking the AS papers would seem a good start. You then need to find out what he needs to get at A2 (with or without retake) to lift the overall grade. Then he needs to take on board exactly what that means for him in terms of work required (hopefully he will be with you at the parents evening to hear this from the horse's mouth?) and most important,y whether all this is in fact realistic.

Maybe he would be the ideal candidate for a gap year- find out what his grades are, get a bit of work experience and apply with a bit more focus with all that in his back pocket next year?

[bigbluebus]

My DS has just started at a RG Uni on a BEng Specialist engineering course with a BBB offer. He also didn't do as well as he hoped at AS and his offer was higher than his predictions, but he managed to lift his grades at A2. With the grades he got he could have got straight onto an MEng at a non-RG Uni (which was his insurance) and he was actually very impressed with that Uni at the Open Day - more so than with the RG Uni in the same city which we had also visited as he felt the non-RG had better facilities for the subject. However, he was determined he wanted to go to a RG if he could - entirely decided by him - DH went to a Poly and I didn't go into HE, so there was no pushing from us.

I will also add that my DS had done work experience which was linked to engineering in Yr 12, but not the branch of engineering he is now studying - he had no experience in that area. We also didn't have any contacts for the engineering industry - he got his place by a chance conversation he and DH had when visiting this company as part of Engineering week put on by a City Museum.

It may be a good idea for your DS to sit down with a Careers advisor - but I'd say that depends on how good the advisor is. DS was unimpressed with the one linked to him at his school.

[hellsbells99]

Hello Op.
My DD is also looking at engineering. She is applying to uni but also looking at apprenticeships too. www.findapprenticeship.service.gov.uk/apprenticeships?Keywords=Engineer&Location=Derby+(Derbyshire)&WithinDistance=0&ApprenticeshipLevel=Higher&Latitude=52.91577&Longitude=-1.4735&Hash=-114822773&SearchMode=Keyword&LocationType=NonNational&
The Jaguar Land Rover one on this link also leads to a BEng degree. It may be worth looking into to keep his options open for now - no decisions will be needed until after results days next year

[Headofthehive55]

Can I just point out that lots of small industrial firms have chartered engineers working for them. However in DH's company an engineer also tends to be the general manager....but you wouldn't know from their job title that they are an engineer. Multinational. Market leader.

Certainly they are very much involved with keeping the factory machines running and improving production rates, with the fitters and electricians of course...I worked in production, and yes the grad engineers were there.

[Headofthehive55]

Oh and can I point out that lots of engineering has a tradition in the non RG \ polytechnics of old, so lots of people who will eventually interview him will have degrees from these places and not necessarily discount you because you haven't got a degree from somewhere impressive.

[Kez100]

For all their intelligence, some MNers really seem to miss the point! One wonders how they ever passed exams themselves if the do not RTQ.

Another thing he could look at is the National Apprenticeship website - to give him a flavour of other options out there. Quite how easy apprenticeships are to actually get an offer on, I'm not sure, but it might give him some ideas of career areas.

My DD goes to a BBB university and there are some really good courses with excellent employability although I'm not sure if they come with higher entry requirements - teaching etc as already advised this is where open days really come into their own. It's important to root out the good courses from amongst the chaff.

[noblegiraffe]

It would be unusual to predict a B from a D.

His B was in maths?

[EmmaWoodlouse]

Afraid not . But he got an A* at GCSE and we are almost sure that he just really didn't work hard enough for his AS levels. He is retaking some of the papers.

[noblegiraffe]

I'm a maths teacher and there is no way I would predict a B from a D, even with retakes. A student might go up a grade from AS but that is very unusual and would normally take tutoring on top of retakes.

A-level is harder than AS level. Students usually do worse on the A2 papers rather than better, and dropping a grade from AS to A2 is not unusual.

[Lilymaid]

Has he considered applying for a foundation degree course - easier to get into and with the opportunity to progress further provided he does well on it?
NB If he is only really interested in the fun side of university, engineering is a bad choice as the work load/timetable is heavy.
(DH is a C.Eng and has mentored a number of people who have risen through the ranks. Academic achievement straight off isn't always the only way to succeed in an engineering career).

[noblegiraffe]

Even if the school agree to predict him a B for maths, it's unlikely he'll get it. He needs a back-up plan where he gets a C for maths (by working his arse off), and another where he gets a D (most likely outcome). Uni might not be the best path.

[ImperialBlether]

To get a B from a D he has to get the equivalent of an A* in his second year. It can happen, if a student has a massive rush of motivation and was just lazy before, but it's really unlikely. We used to predict either the same grade as AS or a grade higher. He simply has to know why he wants to study engineering (or any other subject) before writing his personal statement. Even with amazing grades if the personal statement isn't convincing then he's stuck.

Do you think he just fancies being a student for a while rather than wanting to study something for a career?

[Headofthehive55]

Hope you manage to have a good chat with his teachers. Does sound like a year out trying things out, assessing options might be a good idea. That could always prove beneficial when he is trying to get a job afterwards as he might have experience to draw on. It might help with motivation also.

The step,up to a levels is a challenging one. I bet he has put his head in the sand...feeling good at GCSE doing well then not so well at A level. A bit challenging on the old self esteem, no wonder he doesn't seem that motivated.

[EmmaWoodlouse]

I think that's what it is, hive. He does say he wants to work towards a B, and he is resitting the AS level or possibly just the parts of it he did badly in (another thing I need to find out tomorrow). I'm really hoping parents' evening will clarify things: give DS a clear indication of what he'll need to do to achieve that (or as near as possible), possibly convince DH that a year out or alternatives to uni wouldn't be such a bad thing (unlike me has has no siblings who didn't go to uni, so he never really thinks about other possibilities), and maybe throw up some new suggestions that none of us have thought about before.

Lilymaid If he is only really interested in the fun side of university... I don't think he is only interested in the fun side, I think he believes it will be fun, and has named a subject he thinks sounds quite interesting, I just don't think he knows enough about that subject at the moment to be making an informed decision. With his first open evening coming up this weekend, he should soon know a bit more and either be going into it with his eyes open or decide it's not for him and look into some other subjects.

Actually I've just this minute realised that I chose my own uni subject on the basis that "it sounded interesting" without having much experience of it, and it turned out quite well and I got a 2.1. I seem to be simultaneously coming round to the idea that his lack of knowledge isn't that worrying while also realising that his exam results could be more of a problem than I realised.

[ImperialBlether]

Do you know how near the grade barrier he was, OP? If he was only a couple of points off a C that will make a big difference.

[ImperialBlether]

Would something like this degree in Architectural Engineering suit him?

[EmmaWoodlouse]

Imperial DS really likes the sound of that - thank you so much! The only snag is we have to be in another part of the country on the day of the open day. I'm going to research the university and course as much as I can in case we can't find a way round that, but also see how feasible it would be to send DS on his own by train/bus and then somehow meet him afterwards (there's a very big triangle involved, from SW to NE!)

[ImperialBlether]

I will PM you. However, Liverpool's in the NW, not the NE!

[EmmaWoodlouse]

No, the other place is in the NE, and we're normally in the SW!

[EmmaWoodlouse]

...and I have PM'd you back. This is one of the most promising ideas yet!

[Ricardian]

To get a B from a D he has to get the equivalent of an A in his second year.

Quite. It took me one child going through AS/A2 for the penny to drop about precisely how important ASes are. Every mark under your target grade at AS is two marks you have to improve by. So if you are targeting a B (70% UMS) and get a D (could be as low as 50% UMS) then you need to improve at A2 by 40 UMS (ie, 90% UMS, ie A standard).

What you write isn't quite as true for the very highest D. You might have 59% UMS, which case you only need to improve by 22 UMS and therefore 81% UMS would do at A2 (a low A).

But the overall message is stark: if you have a D at AS and want a B overall, you need to achieve in the (harder) A2 exams at between low A and low A*. AS marks count for 50% of the overall qualification but are (in principle, at least) easier, so the idea that you will go up at A2 is fighting against the facts. In most subjects, if you get a D at AS, the most likely outcome is a D at A2.

This is an argument for getting rid of ASes in their current form. For well-motivated, well-prepared students at good schools with their own sixth forms who hit the ground running in September of U12, this system works in their favour: they can ace their (easier) ASes, and therefore can be confident about their A2s: if you get 90+ in all your ASes, you only need a low B, or more probably a C standard, in (harder) A2 exams to get an A overall. But for students who are moving to college, or didn't do quite as well at GCSE, or aren't as certain about their subject choices, a few months' slightly less focused work can leave them an insurmountable mountain for higher A2 grades.

For maths, all this goes double and double again: C3 and C4 are much harder than C1 and C2. Someone who gets D-standard in C1 and C2 is highly unlikely to do much better in C3 and C4.

[Nonnainglese]

Grades aside, prospective employers look at GCSE, AS and A2 level results (not just degree) and retakes aren't always seen as positive.

DS is a Chartered Engineer and sees a lot of applicants turned down because of poor results at school despite having a good degree, as consistent achievement is critical in his field.

[EmmaWoodlouse]

Parents' evening was fairly positive. His predicted grades, based on how he's doing this term, are "officially B but might even get an A" for both Tech and Physics, and B or C for Maths depending on how he does in a test which is coming up, which will determine his official prediction, and for which he is reasonably confident he will do well. The problem with both the Tech and Maths AS levels seems to have been with the exam (which he will retake) rather than the coursework so he will be doing a lot of past papers and getting some help with exam techniques. I found it helpful to know exactly where his weaknesses are, and that it's not just laziness.

We also had a long session with the careers teacher, who had a "league table" list of universities which she said more or less predicted what points they would expect (the top of the league wanting more). She advised him to research the ones below about the top 25 and if possible to pick 2 with a BBB or equivalent offer, two with something like BCC and possibly one that aimed a bit higher - to be narrowed down later such that his insurance offer is around 260 points. The B at AS level in the subject he dropped already counts for 50 points and every little helps! She also told us about a website that tells you in a lot of detail what all kinds of jobs people might do after university are really like. He's going to go on that and find out more about all the areas of engineering that he thinks might interest him. It's looking a lot like civil or architectural at the moment.

We also touched on foundation degrees that can then go on to full degrees in the same place, but it's looking slightly less like he might need to go that route.

He will obviously have a lot of work to do, and has been advised to do past papers whenever he hasn't got any normal homework and to devote some of his free periods at school to study, but he seems to be quite motivated to do this at the moment.