Is it a good idea to pay university tuition fees off upfront?

[SunnyDays01]

Apologies if this has already been done to death but if anybody has any advice regarding tuition fees in particular I'd be grateful. Just about to embark on the student loan route and it occurred to me that there has been a lot in the press regarding the pros and cons of paying university fees upfront. Anyone have any advice/answers? Thank you.

[titchy]

It isn't about vocational vs non vocational - it's about valuing degrees that won't necessarily lead to well paid jobs.

Society as a whole benefits from universities. To say the benefit, and therefore the cost of provision, should be borne solely by the recipient ignores that, and implies the only purpose of a degree is just to enhance ones earnings. It isn't.

[ragged]

That sounds like a return to polytechnic institutions. I can't see anyone going for it.

[ragged]

Some people get good degrees & then choose minimum wage jobs not remotely linked to what they studied. Which is fine as a personal choice, but should taxpayers fund it? The risk of spending lots of money on an unused degree should fall overwhelmingly on the student.

[TalkinPeace]

ragged
No, I'm in favour of much more work based training - of the type that employers want done but are too tight to pay for.
PROPER apprenticeships and day release and the like

FFS Accountancy firms all do it - AAT, CTA, ICAEW, ACCA, CIMA, CIPFA, ICAS : all based on in employment training contracts

titchy
Do you really think there should be BA degrees in Event management, rather than getting out there and getting on with it ?

Plumbers and Electricians earn good money, do CPD and the like without going near a degree course.
Maybe its time more kids looked long and hard at whether a degree is the right route to where they want to be

BUT
The current funding system encourages maximising degree numbers ( so the vice Chancellors can keep their pay up ) rather than maximising interesting outcomes for the kids

[TalkinPeace]

The risk of spending lots of money on an unused degree should fall overwhelmingly on the student.
Which at the moment it does not

[cleanmachine]

Also, surely giving young people the message that they can collect all the loans available to them on the basis that they (if not likely be high earners) will probably never have yo pay it off is a ridiculous message. Where is the financial responsibility in all this?

I agree that less kids should be going to uni but if numbers are cut it will most likely be kids from disadvantaged backgrounds who will be the victims.

[Abra1d]

It is not always as simple as saying some degrees are useful and some not. A degree from Bristol or Oxford in English Lit or from Cambridge or Exeter in History will always show that you are intelligent and have a trained and analytical mind. Employers aren't stupid, they know this.

[TalkinPeace]

Abra1d
What about Event management - £9000 a year tuition fees, 280 UCAS points.
Should the taxpayer be willing to cover the bulk of that as those graduates are unlikely to pay back their loans?

[ragged]

Public entertainment events make a lot of money, think of all the footie games for a start, I could see that easily being a lucrative career, actually.

[TalkinPeace]

ragged
Rob da Bank makes lots of money out of his events.
The bods who stand around in yellow vests with all areas passes get paid next to nothing.
They have their degrees and they barely make minimum wage.

The football club near me does not hire event management graduates, it hires stewards and pays them in tickets not money.

Glamourous industries are notoriously bad payers stuffed to the gills with interns and graduates on NMW.

[GentlyBenevolent]

I'm not convinced Event Management needs a degree (although I suspect the most successful people in the field have degrees not unrelated to the area in which they started off organising events) but it can be a fucking lucrative job (and it's a real art, too). Speaking as someone who is often asked to talk at events, and who is also sometimes asked to oversee technical content (sometimes involving dealing with speakers) it's a complete black art and I am in awe of the really good event managers - and I only really have exposure to professional style events/conferences. Entertainment style event management (which I do know a bit about having friends in the field but only as an observer/shoulder to cry on) is many times more difficult (and £££ generating (or not, if you fuck it up)).

The problem we all have is that it's very difficult to predict what careers will look like in the future. All we know is that they probably won't look like they look now.

[GentlyBenevolent]

Talkin - the event managers I know are very well paid. They aren't stewards.

[TalkinPeace]

The most successful event manager I know - who does HUGE conference type stuff in London and around the world - was kicked off his engineering degree after three terms and became a radio DJ and got into it that way ....

he had entrepeneurial skill, not a relevant BA

The problem we all have is that it's very difficult to predict what careers will look like in the future. All we know is that they probably won't look like they look now.
Absolutely
Which is why degrees need to be broad based and teach high level analysis or be specifically vocational.

[grovel]

Completely agree, Talkin.

[GentlyBenevolent]

If you're organising a massive professional based event it helps to have at least a rough understanding of the subject matter (thinking conferences here rather than entertainment style conventions or festivals). If you're organising a massive music festival it probably helps to know a bit about music. Ditto literature, specialist media...(this doesn't always mean having a degree though). The people I know who organise these types of things, I know because I meet them through friends who are the 'draw' at these types of things - and they prefer to deal with people who sort of know their stuff as well as how to sell, how to make things run smoothly etc. But ultimately they like people who do pay (as opposed to not) so knowledge isn't the key factor!

I'm still not convinced that the art of event management is something that can be taught at uni though, better to study business or something that will get you into niche sectors.

The key thing for me about a degree is that it should teach you how to think. Everything follows from that.

[TalkinPeace]

The key thing for me about a degree is that it should teach you how to think. Everything follows from that.

Hear hear

[ragged]

Isn't event management a niche sector?

I can't be doing with this idealism about uni degrees "teach you to think."
As near as I can tell, the vast majority of students never got that from their degree, not now, not 40 yrs ago either.

[Abra1d]

Talkin, I have have no idea. But I do know that humanities graduates from top universities are employed. Often in well-paid jobs. I worked in the City and at a management consultancy on the back of my non-stem degree.

[FishWithABicycle]

secretsquirrels that's an interesting article, thank you. I can see the appeal of the idea. But it still has the flaw that keeping your salary deliberately low is actively incentivised, which will never be good for the economy.

Either it needs to be combined with giving the lender power to force graduates into being wage-salves (not ideal) or there needs to be some serious carrots and sticks built into the system. At present there is no negative consequences for the graduate if they never repay their debt, and no reward if they do. That doesn't seem right.

[GentlyBenevolent]

Ragged - there are general events and then there are niche events. The Stockholm early music festival would be an example of a niche event.

[GentlyBenevolent]

ragged - you're obviously not mixing with the right sort of students or graduates.

[Abra1d]

It seems to punish high earners. And, frankly, men. Who wouldn't be taking as much paternity leave in all likelihood. {Ducks}

[TalkinPeace]

The follow up FAQ article is interesting
www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/University%20factsheet%20-%20formatted.pdf

But still does not address the suspicion I've picked up from the Uni types on this and other threads that low cost language and humanities degrees are essential to balance the fact that that some STEM degrees cost a lot more than £9k a year ....

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

As near as I can tell, the vast majority of students never got that from their degree, not now, not 40 yrs ago either.

Gosh! I wouldn't like to claim that the majority of students on my course or at my university emerged as great analytical thinkers, but I would say we all got a lot out of it. I did an Arts/Humanities subject in the early 80s. One of my contemporaries is now a director of an extremely well known plc. He got a 2.2 but that didn't hold him back. He got onto their graduate trainee scheme straight from our degree studies and they presumably thought his 3 years studying Cicero and Aristophanes had some value!

[ajandjjmum]

As someone who has mocked events management as a degree, and now has first hand experience of what's involved, I have to say that much of the content is similar to a Business degree. I was surprised at how much DD was able to help her brother, who was taking a Masters in Management at a top London uni.

Whilst anyone interested in events might work as a steward etc. to gain experience, I don't think that would ever be their end goal. Modules include Business/Finance/Project Management/HR/Branding and PR/Health and Safety - practical topics.

DD had wonderful experience (London 2012) but talking to people in the industry, she felt that the time would come when not having a degree would have counted against her, if she had gone straight into another events position.

(She is now job hunting for June though, so we'll have to see what happens then!)