Bristol or Exeter for Philosophy?

[Socy]

DS1, as a 'mature' student (he's 21) has just applied to uni to start in September. Amazingly he's had 5 offers, all unconditional as he completed FE 2 years ago. He has narrowed the choice to Bristol or Exeter. He prefers the look of the course at Exeter but loves Bristol as a place, and has never visited Exeter. Obviously Bristol has the better reputation, but I'm concerned that the course will not be what he is looking for (having discussed with a philosophy lecturer I know). What would you recommend?

[Socy]

Thanks for all the input on here. He has decided on Exeter, based on the course descriptions and clubs available - too lazy to go and visit, but it is a long way from home, and at this time of year empty campuses wouldn't give the right impression anyway. He is planning on some nights out in Bristol (the music scene was his initial reason for applying there)

[Molio]

As Beck says, this is a bit narrow for the thread :). But no it's quite clearly not anything as silly as that Hakluyt. If you look at the profiles of the younger generation of barristers in the top sets they're pretty impressive. It's bound to be the case that there are exceptional students at plenty of other universities, but it's significantly more likely that there will be more of them coming from Oxford and Cambridge. They've already had an initial sift during the admissions process and that's been followed up with generally excellent individual tuition. Hard to see how that doesn't make a difference.

[Hakluyt]

"For every Bristol grad there will be twenty Oxford and Cambridge, possibly more. For the very good reason that those are likely to be the brightest and best, in an academic setting such as the Bar."

And the other very good reason that the Head of Chambers is also likely to be an Oxbridge man...................

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

molio, I do get where you're coming from completely, and I am very sure everyone on this thread is who they say they are ... but I just wanted to point out there's no way to verify it. Just saying it because while I take your point, there's a limit to how much anyone can really stand on dignity given we're anon here.

[Hakluyt]

My dd got an offer from Exeter for Philosophy and Theology. She was very tempted because she loved it when she visited, and there is a very well known female theologian there that she was very keen to see more of. But in the end she decided against. Her main reason was the "cosiness" . The campus is very self contained, and, while that felt very comfortable she was afraid it might feel a bit insular and school like. I would imagine that it would feel even more restricting to a mature student.

[BeckAndCall]

I know that, Molio. My point is that there will be at least a few Bristol grads. But not many Exeter grads.

But my bigger point was that that only matters if you want to be a barrister. And that it was a very specific example which the OPs son shouldn't take into account unless it was likely to be relevant to him. It was an example of one of the generalisations that one uni was better than another which really doesn't matter unless it's specific to you.

[Molio]

Completely agree with Herc about the ludicrousness of MNers who claim they know, because their DH does this or that. There are some notable culprits. One's DH does something to do with medical admissions at Cambridge, or did. So she knows everything, allegedly (but frequently gives dangerously misleading advice). One's DH does something to do with inspecting schools, so she knows all there is to know about all secondary schools of whatever type everywhere. Milly's recruits. Etc. But Herc recruits too. Directly. And the wives (could be husbands in theory of course) claim parity, because they've been told by DH! It's called hearsay Milly and it's not regarded as equally valid. Which is Herc's point! And also a bit Little Women. I'd tend to value advice from those actually working in a field, to the reported suppertime conversations of those married to them.

Beck if you look at the profiles of top chambers Bristol grads will be in the tiny minority. For every Bristol grad there will be twenty Oxford and Cambridge, possibly more. For the very good reason that those are likely to be the brightest and best, in an academic setting such as the Bar.

[BeatriceBean]

(And completely agree, its the "obviously Bristol has the better reputation" which has skewed discussion and is blatantly not true.)

[BeatriceBean]

I only teach A level, but would lean towards Exeter just simply on non-tangible things such as students I've sent there liking the course, quite liking Exeter etc!

I would advise a visit quickly to both, a good look at course prospectus/ look at if its modular/ how it is taught/subjects and let your child decide which one they like the best.

Please don't try to sway your child based on what your friends think has more status - they are enough of a muchness that its more important your child chooses a course/campus they will enjoy.

[AllMimsyWereTheBorogoves]

Milly, for the future just say 'Someone I know/a family member who runs a company and regularly recruits graduates...' and you will avoid this. Unfortunately saying it's your DH will put some people's hackles up. I know you didn't mean to imply that as your husband is a man he will know much better than any woman, but this is how any reference to a husband's opinion is always taken here.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

at upthe. I had been quietly wondering about that.

Anyway, I came on (as a mere fool, not married to anyone of importance, won't be a lecturer for two months, not a philosopher - didn't know that many philosophers ran companies but there we go) to say that bristol is an extremely pleasant town to live in, and my sense is Exeter can feel a little more isolated.

I think it is hugely important to go with a place you like. It will make him feel so much happier, and he's 21 ... he's old enough to know where he feels comfortable. There is nothing to beat waking up thinking 'wow, I'm so glad I live and study here'.

Best of luck to him whichever he ends up with.

[MillyMollyMama]

So nice to be attacked on Mumsnet for putting forward an opinion! Why is it SO wrong to talk about my DH's company? It is a professional one and surely ALL opinions should be valued? Some of you are very superior and rude!

[UptheChimney]

It's always so nice when someone says 'I do something' and then someone else says 'my DH does something and you are wrong'. Real personal experience there

I've noticed that too, Herc! Mansplaining by proxy ...

But Herc and Boo are right about all the different league tables. They are of some value, but it's limited and you need to look at the individual elements which make up the rankings. The Guardian league tables let you sort according to each different element, for example, so you can rank Universities in the subject you're interested in by Research score, or by Student satisfaction, or by Value added, or by Employment -- and so on. You'd be surprised at how the rankings change when you sort by each individual factor.

But then I'm only an academic, not someone married to someone who used to be something or other ...

But Beck is right, and this is the central piece of advice I'd give always: visit each campus, go to an Open Day, talk to the people who'll be teaching you.

[BeckAndCall]

Well, if we're going on rankings, Bristol is 70 something in the world rankings and Exeter is 150 something. If you go by world rankings, that might influence you.

And employment wise, there is a perception in the legal world that a Bristol degree is one of the few that will get you into a London chambers. Just a perception, I'm sure and only relevant to one particular career. So with others, my experience is limited to the areas of work I know.

And yet, all of these wouldn't make me choose one over the other. By now as this thread has been running a while, the OPs DS will have visited both places, I'm sure, and made up his own mind. If he hasn't visited, I'd say he doesn't care enough about it in any case - if you don't care enough about where you're going to spend the next three years to actually go and see it, or you think you'd be equally happy either place, then you may as well go on what you read on the website that attracts you. He may be working, but presumably not 7 days a week.

[MillyMollyMama]

Why, HercShipwright is it wrong for me to say that my DH recruits graduates but it is ok for you to say that you do it personally? Why is your experience more valid than his? Why am I derided for mentioning that my DH recruits graduates but not me? We do talk about who his company recruits so I am not making it up. Why do you think yourself superior? They are experiences of a similar nature - and therefore both worthy of debate.

[MillyMollyMama]

The Complete University Guide now ranks Bristol above Exeter for Philosophy for 2015. Therefore league tables should really be dismissed when you get past the top three and into the next 15 or so. They change a lot too from year to year. Philosophy graduates are not overly employable if you read these tables, but it is better than sociology.

[Persipan]

If he does decide on Exeter, I'd advise him to get an accommodation application in before 31st July to be guaranteed accommodation (assuming he wants it).

[Booboostoo]

milly philosophy graduates are very employable as they are valued for their analytic skills which have diverse applications. An MA and PhD in philosophy would seriously limit one's options to an academic career, but the BA makes philosophy graduates amongst the most employable inthe humanities.

See for e.g. Timeshighereducation.co.uk/404855.article

[HercShipwright]

It's always so nice when someone says 'I do something' and then someone else says 'my DH does something and you are wrong'. Real personal experience there...

The OP suggested that Bristol is better reputed than Exeter. This is no longer true (it was in the past). I know this from personal first hand experience, not because my DH does a particular job, but because I, myself, do a particular job. Debunking a claim that one university is better reputed than another is not the same thing as saying that 'employers 'hate'' the first university. Employers regard both highly. The only issue I had with the OP's first post was the claim that 'obviously Bristol has the better reputation'. Because, obviously, it doesn't. That's all.

[MillyMollyMama]

What employers do not like Bristol graduates? This is absolute tosh! Getting a job with a Philosophy degree is the bigger challenge, not whether you choose Bristol or Exeter. Bristol has a huge public school cohort and plenty are wealthy. The university is in the city and many students live in the Clifton area which is not cheap.

Employers, and DH is an employer, look for far more than just the university attended so the choice should come down to what the course content looks like (although if a lecturer leaves, options get deleted), the quality of the course, what city you want to live in and where you think you will fit in. The educational merits and league tables of these two universities are besides the point because there is "nowt but a fag paper" between them! I know Bristol/Exeter graduates with fabulous jobs and I know people from both these universities who have struggled to get a graduate level job. I would look to see if the courses are likely to meet his employment aims as well as content.

[HercShipwright]

Booboo I was agreeing with your view on rankings in general, mainly for the reasons you state - but pointing out that recruiters do notice things like universities plummeting down (which has happened to Bristol). Had the OP not mentioned (and then repeated) an out of date perception of the reputation of the two universities in question, I wouldn't have bothered to comment. Reputation != quality, rankings != quality but there is a link between ranking and reputation. It's not isomorphic, but it does exist.

[Booboostoo]

Herc I wasn't challenging your post or the specific rankings you linked to, just giving my view on rankings in general. A lot of factors can be manipulated like student surveys and statistics and a lot of factors may be irrelevant, e.g. a couple of good temporary lecturers who are gone by the time you want to study there. I was a philosophy lecturer. In general it is a subject that has high student satisfaction rates as it encourages free thinking, debate, challenging everyone including your lecturer and deals with a lot of contemporary fun topics. Having said that, the student experience is heavily influenced by who teaches you which, at the end of the day, is a matter of luck. Most lecturers are conscientious, engaged and energetic, but they also have a lot of their time taken up by admin tasks, they are under a lot of pressure to publish and are forced to accept decreased contact hours which has the most detrimental effect on the student experience. That is affecting the whole of the HE sector though so there is no way round it.

[Socy]

thanks for these comments. I think the perception of the general public is that Bristol is the better university - certainly that is the way his friends seem to be pushing him. He won't be coming home outside of holidays or staying in halls the full time, but I think the bursaries might be slightly better at Bristol as they are a wealthier institution, not much in it though. I have suggested he visit but not much time as he is working.

[HercShipwright]

Boohoo I've been a lecturer and am married to one! I know that to a certain extent the rankings are - shall we say meaningless. But the OP stated that 'obviously bristol has the better reputation' and it really doesn't. The rankings are just one way that this is reflected.

Recruiters look at them up to a point. They have their own criteria too. But they notice things like universities on the up, and universities dropping like a stone.

[Booboostoo]

Most UG curricula will cover the same sort of things e.g. A bit of epistemology, a bit of metaphysics, a bit of moral philosophy, a bit of political philosophy The optional courses will vary from department to department but you can't know in advance what optional courses may be on offer on any given year as it will depend on research leave, work loads, changing staff interests, etc.

From a lecturer's perspective the rankings are a load of useless crap but I have no idea if any employers actually give them any weight.