My feed
Premium

Please
or
to access all these features

Guest posts

Guest post: "The pressure for boys to 'man up' harms both sexes"

45 replies

MumsnetGuestPosts · 05/05/2016 15:56

Pink. Princesses. Patriarchy. As soon as I found out that I was expecting a girl, I worried about what life would have in store for her. But I don't recall any equivalent concern when I had my son three years earlier. Eight years down the line and it turns out that I do worry about what life holds for him.

"Boys do all right, they don't even need to be clever," a female friend once remarked to me. I am a proud feminist and readily agree that, generally, men do better than women when it comes to cash, careers and clout. But this ignores the pressure to 'act like a man' that boys and men face, to their detriment – and the detriment of girls and women.

It is assumed that boys will be more interested in tearing around rather than talking, making noise rather than nurturing, and competing rather than co-operating. Too often, they are seen as a 'problem'.

These sexist expectations become self-fulfilling prophecies. Boys are three times more likely to be excluded from school than girls and four times more likely to suffer from behavioural difficulties. Later in life, 95% of prisoners are men, as are 75% of suicides. Even problems such as eating disorders that in the past have been almost exclusively associated with girls are increasingly affecting boys too. Hollywood blockbusters and reality television promote a male physical ideal that is as unhealthy as the long-standing female equivalent. Often, girls bear the brunt of boys' fixation with power and domination. Sexual harassment in schools is an everyday occurrence: the problem is so severe that the Commons' Women and Equalities Committee has launched an inquiry.

As a parent, it's possible to feel helpless in the face of all this disturbing information. But in writing my book, Man Up, I came across inspiring mothers, fathers and others who are challenging male stereotypes, from local projects to national campaigns. Josh Lee set up Bristol Dads, to open up support networks for fathers like himself, and promote the role of dads as carers. As he explained to me, the smallest interactions with our children can make a difference: "If I push a buggy and change nappies then why shouldn't a little boy play at doing the same thing? What I'd like to see is positive action, like men playing with dolls with their sons." Parent campaigners such as Ros and James from @GenderDiary and the group Let Toys Be Toys are making canny use of consumer power and social media to hold to account those peddling sexist assumptions about both girls and boys.

Ros is nonetheless aware that we can't hold back the sexist tide from our children forever, particularly as their social circles open up at school. I found the observations of Judy Chu, a human biologist at Stanford University, particularly helpful here. Chu carried out a study of a group of boys as they progressed through the early years of school and found that they adapted their behaviour and attitudes to fit the dominant view of what boys should be. What's important, says Chu, is that: "At times when they are reluctant to speak up, they can still preserve their integrity by remaining aware of what they really think, feel or want … That said, we can also help kids to identify and focus their efforts on relationships in which they wouldn't have to chose between being themselves and being with others."

Of course, it's not just parents who can play a part in supporting boys. Most people, in one way or another, come into contact with boys. Everyone can help liberate boys from limiting social expectations, whether by encouraging them to talk about how they feel or refraining from making assumptions about their interests. This won't just make for happier boys, it will benefit others too. As Amy, a mother of sons, remarked to me, "My boys will be adults one day; they may have children of their own. I want them to feel free to live their lives as they would wish and to have the same respect for women as they do for men. I believe that the values we are instilling in them will make a difference."

Rebecca Asher is the author of MAN UP: Boys, Men and Breaking the Male Rules, priced £14.99 out on 5 May.

OP posts:
Report
WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 07/05/2016 13:37

And I don't feel women should take on a lot of this resolving the extremes of masculinity project. Men are the experts on that anyway

Agreed, I'm sure there are many ways that men can express themselves in a masculine way that doesn't harm others.

Report
CherryPicking · 07/05/2016 13:48

This puzzles me. Although I do see a fee parents at school pushing their sons to behave in stereotypical ways, the majority of parents don't seem to be doing this, at least not overtly. Yet, both my DDS are going through school with an incredibly narrow picture of what boys are like: domineering, snobbish, competitive, negative, aggressive, loud, rude. The older they get, the more this seems true.I don't know if they go to schools that are much worse than average for male behaviour, or whether this is true for most places.

Anyway, I think it's time for schools to tackle chauvinism head on, not as part of general equalities practise, but as a particular, incredibly damaging problem in its own right.

I have a son, and quite honestly if he starts displaying these behaviours regularly when he starts school I might have to quit work to home school him.

Report
CherryPicking · 07/05/2016 13:56

And I have to disagree with this 'boys are more physical' thing. What does that even mean?! Are girls more ephemeral? Do we all float in and out of reality on a cloud made of unicorn hair? It's just more social conditioning being wheeled out as biological fact! If we seem to be taking up less space - if we seem quieter, less inclined to play rugby or whatever - that's social conditioning! As proven by the exceptions to those stereotypes, who somehow managed to escape having their spirits squashed at a young age.

Report
HermioneWeasley · 07/05/2016 14:34

Absolutely agree that rigid behavioural expectations based on sex are damaging to boys and girls.

I remember my son when he was 2 or 3 being scared at the top of a climbing frame and my father telling him to stop crying and man up. I was horrified.

We talk a lot about gender stereotypes in our family and my kids reject them.

Unfortunately I think we are getting more entrenched as witnesses by the "trans kids" nonsense . It seems that if your son like dresses and unicorns it's easier for some parents to accept he's really a girl, than have a boy who likes dresses. I saw an article from a US based father recently citing the fact that his son loves "soccer" (more popular with women in America) that his son was really his daughter. It said "I tried everything - I painted his room blue, I bought him dinosaur pyjamas"

Report
PacificDogwod · 07/05/2016 14:48

Yesterday in the local park a little boy was turning the roundabout thing faster and faster, other children on the ride were getting frightened and shouted 'stop', he continued, eventually somebody fell off, there were tears. A little girl who had been standing by and had also been shouting for him to stop, then got really cross and told him off at the top of her voice. There was no swearing, no bad words, just 'Why did you not stop?? We all told you to stop? WHY would you even do that?' - all said loudly and rather incredulously.
Who did the by-standing parents tells off? The girl for 'shouting like a fish wife'.
Whose parent was embarrassed? The little girl's.
The little boy apparently was 'just being a boy'…. It boils my piss tbh.

I totally agree that woman should not take on solving the gender problem. Men need to recognise how much damage is being done to them by their own gender and then address this.

Report
almondpudding · 07/05/2016 16:49

Pacific, that scenario is horrible.

Report
beckythemasterbaker · 07/05/2016 17:56

Op am glad you posted this. I was going to start one last week with similar train of thought and understanding.

Am going to start of by saying that the best advice I had someone say about what you have just stated op is that "All men should be feminist". If men saw life through the female lens and what might benefit them too without fear, Our society would be different place and happier.

Patriarchy plays a big role in why men have a high suicide rate between the ages of 40 to 70 compared to women. Most suicide in this age group is down to financial worries according to a study, mostly debt and job loses. We should ask our selves why it affects men two to three times more than women. The answer would mostly be whether they are able to financially provide for their family or they can be seen to stand on their own two feet. (Man up, asking men to take responsibility and not be a failure. This does not apply to women as much). A man who supports feminism would be able to feel comfortable being a stay at home dad. Would feel comfortable taking the nurture role with child care without feeling emasculated or seen as less of a man but equal to his fellow female counterpart. A feminist man would be able to promote a female at work if she was good enough without questioning whether she will leave and get married once she meets a suitable man. A feminist man would listen to a female and not under mind her ideas just because she is a woman.

This same theory applies to male prisoners too. The highest number of male crimes are either financial fraud, robberies, or those where they feel able to dominate the victim, l.e rape or domestic violence. Not only do you have high crime rates in men, you also, have judges being soft on female criminal. Mainly because they were seen to either have children or the assumption that a man must have been behind it. It's not a coincidence that these crime rates are are like this. Patriarchal society socialises us to internalise gender roles and play our part.

In my feminist world men would still be ambitious but have the same respect for ambitious women in the same league. The shops would sell kids toys without gender labelling. Disney would make movies that portrays women in good light, lifting the female self-esteem without undermining men in order to create an equal society.

Report
RiverTam · 07/05/2016 17:59

That's awful, Pacific. Good for that little girl, let's hope her assertiveness doesn't get kicked out if her. I like to think that if we'd been there I would have said something.

I've heard from a couple of transsexual women (their preferred term, I believe) that toxic masculinity played a big part in their decision to trans. I think the overwhelming pornification of women has got to be one of the main reasons why the number of girls referred to the Tavistock has gone through the roof. Why does it seem that sending people down the route of a lifetime on meds and possible surgery and poor mental health is better than society taking a damn good look at itself and sorting itself out, with manhood (which of course is the reason for the pornification of women) top of the list.

Report
beckythemasterbaker · 07/05/2016 18:08

Rivertam I agree with you in support of Pacific. The little girls parent should have stood up for their daughter with excellent life skill, it will be translated into being bossiness rather than assertiveness .

The parent should have told their boy off for misbehaving rather than knocking down a well mannered girls confidence.

Report
WhenSheWasBadSheWasHorrid · 08/05/2016 07:39

cherrypicking

And I have to disagree with this 'boys are more physical' thing. What does that even mean?! Are girls more ephemeral? Do we all float in and out of reality on a cloud made of unicorn hair? It's just more social conditioning being wheeled out as biological fact

I would never say social conditioning isn't important - it absolutely is. I just the people are a product of both their genes and their environment.
Boys do engage in more rough and tumble play than girls.

Also there appears to be a link between testosterone levels in boys effecting the amount of rough and tumble play they do (basically increased fetal testosterone means increased rough and tumble play).

Report
beccyasher · 08/05/2016 12:26

Hello

Thank you for all these further comments. This debate has given me a lot to think about.

beckythemasterbaker - I completely agree with you that feminism (and men recognising patriarchy as damaging) is key. At first sight, it may seem unlikely that men will turn against patriarchy - which after all serves them so well in many ways - but I have become more optimistic after conversations with young male feminists who understand very well that patriarchy is harmful for both sexes. In many ways these young men have so much to gain from just going with the patriarchal flow, so it's especially encouraging to see them challenge it.

almondpudding - "And I don't like the clarion call (not meaning the OP here) that if we don't give a group even more support and attention, they're going to start a war, or murder more of us, or kill themselves. Because that seems manipulative to me."
That's a really interesting point. I think, though, that raising children who are decent and kind and bring as much joy and as little pain as possible to those around them is an aim that would chime with many parents. I think that's just a pretty common parenting goal, not a call for more attention or manipulative. And if we accept (which I think most people commenting so far do?) that stereotyping is harmful for boys as well as girls, then surely trying to change things for boys as well as girls is simply the humane thing to do. It's possible for society to think more carefully about how best to support boys, without detracting from attempts to support girls: in fact this 'joined up' approach is more likely to be successful.

Thanks again

Rebecca

Report
WantedGSOH · 08/05/2016 12:34

My husband & I have two young boys. I grew up in a family of girls (sister, female cousins etc) as did my own mother. My father was an only child with four female cousins!
So I had no real preconceived ideas about what having boys 'should' be like.

I love having boys (I'm sure I'd love having girls too!) but find gender stereotypes for young children a real issue. My eldest (3&half) is very articulate, and spoke well from a young age. He's bright, desperate to spend all day reading, obsessed with numbers & words, laughs himself silly about odd wordplay Confused but not very confident & can be shy in large groups. These are apparently considered to be more 'girl' traits (the desire to learn, verbal dexterity etc, rather than the shyness). He also loves being outside & has loads of energy (needs a twice daily run around - rather like a dog!) but will probably not be one of 'the boys' haring round in a group shouting.

There seems to be an expectation that girls are good & intellectual but boys are loud, naughty and not intellectual.

It's difficult to get his preschool to understand that he genuinely enjoys sitting down learning ('like a girl would') and that he needs help with confidence to play in large groups.

I'm not surprised that boys aren't doing as well academically as they could be, when such stereotypes are around from so young.

I want to add that my aim is to raise two boys who are always kind and respectful to others - as I would if I had girls. I feel like that covers all bases!

Report
beckythemasterbaker · 08/05/2016 13:35

I'm not surprised that boys aren't doing as well academically as they could be, when such stereotypes are around from so young.

The recent reports says that it's the change in the education style of teaching and exams that benefits girls more than boys.

The interpretation to this is that boys are being socialised differently to the way they are being taught in the class room. It's not playing to their strength.

Does this make me feel sorry for men? I don't think it does. In terms of achievements after schooling they still have better chances compared to female counterparts.

Report
almondpudding · 08/05/2016 16:25

'I think that's just a pretty common parenting goal, not a call for more attention or manipulative.'

I never mentioned parenting at all in the entire post you responded to, Rebecca. I'm talking about the problem of hyper masculinity in society and how women and girls are expected to give up their time and attention to random males. I'm not talking about how parents should treat their sons.

And what I'm saying is that one way of supporting boys when they are growing up (and when they are grown ups) is they should not be led to believe that men are entitled to a relationship with a woman, that they should expect to get a woman pregnant and become a father, that they should have an expectation of women acting as cheerleaders for what men do, and that adult men have some kind of right to women's time and emotional support.

Because what causes a lot of depression and anger in men (and I'm talking here about the average man, not the poverty stricken and marginalised underclass who actually make up most of the suicides and prison bound) is having completely false expectations of what women owe them and then finding out the reality is that many women and girls are no longer prepared to provide those things.

I'm sure you must be aware of that having researched a whole book. If not, go across and look at the Red Pill forms on Reddit, or any other MRA chat area. They're very clear about it.

I'm not suggesting that you, or indeed mothers in general, shouldn't love their sons and bring them up to be happy and well rounded individuals. Of course they should. I hope your book is successful in making parents better at raising sons. I love my son and will support him in any way I can, including keeping him away from hyper masculinity but conversely by visiting him in prison should he set off down the wrong path, as I would do my daughter. But I am not the mother of your son. My daughter is not here to mother your son if they're at secondary school together. We do not owe something to random males.

In short, you are talking about how boys should be parented by their parents, which is all well and good. I'm talking about how women in society are not here to endlessly mother boys and men who are not their sons, and yet we are constantly expected to.

Report
DioneTheDiabolist · 08/05/2016 21:23

I think the OP is talking about parenting boys in her OP and her book. I don't think she is asking women to "mother men".

Report
almondpudding · 08/05/2016 22:05

I know that Dione. I'm not talking about the OP's book. In fact I literally just wrote:

"In short, you are talking about how boys should be parented by their parents, which is all well and good. I'm talking about how women in society are not here to endlessly mother boys and men who are not their sons, and yet we are constantly expected to."

And my post the OP was responding to wasn't about her and her book. It was about Vestal's point, which is why I wrote at the start of the post...

'To go back to Vestal's point, I don't want to fall into the trap of women have to sort it out.'

That's the way threads work. They move on from the opinions of the OP.

Report
DioneTheDiabolist · 08/05/2016 23:15

No, the thread was not "moved on" it was de-railed. I'm just trying to get it back on track as how we parent our boys and how society treats them is a really important issue. For them, us, the future and the women they will encounter.

Report
almondpudding · 09/05/2016 12:24

Then you would get it back on the track you wanted it on by discussing your preferred topic, not by saying I said things I didn't.

Girls being expected to give boys emotional support, energy and attention is part of how society treats boys. Plenty of research into classroom dynamics and teen relationships shows that.

Report
DioneTheDiabolist · 11/05/2016 00:58

Since you have turned your de-rail into a me-rail and killed the thread Almond, I'll bite: what did you not say, that I said you did say?

Report
Malina22 · 13/05/2016 07:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.