Guest post: Plaid Cymru - 'why we want to make smacking illegal'

[MumsnetGuestPosts]

Adults shouldn't hit children.

One might assume that this is an uncontroversial statement, but here in Wales, it's causing a storm of debate and lots of political squabbling.

I'm currently spearheading a campaign for the National Assembly for Wales to make physical punishment of children illegal – I want to change the law so that, if parents find themselves in court after being charged with common assault for hurting their children, they can't use the defence that their behaviour was a reasonable way to discipline their child.

This has been dubbed a ‘smacking ban’, but it's not about banning - it's about clarifying the law and sending a strong message about positive parenting.

The current law in the UK about physical punishment of children is pretty confusing. Since 2004, if anyone acting with parental responsibility is charged with either child abuse or causing actual bodily harm to a child, they can't use the defence of reasonable punishment – but those charged with common assault are still able to. A review of criminal cases a few years ago looked at a small number of these cases and found that they included serious assaults like punches, strangling, and slaps around the head. All the defendants avoided conviction.

As it stands, the law is poorly understood. Changing it to make all physical punishment of children illegal would send a clear message to parents and also to social workers, doctors, teachers and the police. Neighbours and other onlookers who may previously have paused before intervening in a situation where a child could be in danger would know the law is on their side: hitting a child is not acceptable.

The most persistent myth I encounter when advocating for a change in the law is that removing the reasonable punishment defence will criminalise parents, leading to chaos in the court system and a backlog of good parents being charged. This is nonsense. It won't increase prosecutions because the Crown Prosecution Service will follow the same guidelines it does now in choosing whether or not to get involved.

What it would do, however, is make it easier for the courts to convict and protect children when they're being hurt by those who are supposed to care for them. A panicked smack on the back of the legs after a child runs into traffic may not be something I would advocate, but the parent administering it would be no more likely to end up in court than they are now.

I should admit that I have not always felt this way. As a young mother I smacked my first child. I didn't smack his siblings born several years later, perhaps because I was a little older and more confident in my parenting abilities. My son is now a grown man with a family of his own, and a few months ago we talked about his approach to smacking his three children. His response was tough to hear: “no Mam, we decided we wouldn't hit our children because I want to be a better parent than you.”

This, for me, says it all. It's not that he thinks I was a bad parent. Rather, that he wants to be better. Changing the law on the physical punishment of children isn't about judging those in the past who smacked their kids. It's about progress, and it's about our society working to improve so that each generation of children has a better life than the one before.

I know that my son isn't alone. A UK government report found that the majority of the supporters of smacking are over fifty and that only 7% of parents under twenty five ever smack their children. Changing the law would help support a change in culture that is already well underway.

Of course, it would have to be accompanied by public education and support for parents, so they can find more effective ways to discipline their children. Those who work with parents report that the misconception of the law makes it harder to deliver positive parenting messages, and changing it could open up a healthy discussion about parenting in Wales and make us all more conscious of how we treat our children, too. This change is not about unduly interfering with parenting. It's about driving progress in Wales and keeping children safe.

[NoNoNoMYDoIt]

I'm in Wales

I've only ever "smacked" my DC when I've been beyond myself with depression and stress. It has been utter see red uncontrolled anxiety followed by self loathing and hysteria. It's happened twice with DS and about 3 times with DD. All around the time of my divorce from their father. I was on anti depressants. I was suicidal.

How would the law deal with that?

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Well straight off that's not a very honest statement is it. You say "It's not about banning - it's about clarifying the law" then you say "Changing it to make all physical punishment of children illegal"

So.. it's not about clarifying the law, it's about banning smacking.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

Would you smack a work colleague if they did something wrong? What would you think would happen if you did?

Please! there are plenty of arguments that can be made about smacking, but that one is just embarrassing.

Do you know how much trouble you'd get in if you insisted a work colleague go to bed early or made him sit at a table until he'd eaten all his vegetables?

Is grounding a child 'unlawful imprisonment'?

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

No, but the analogy holds if you talk about hierarchy in the workplace. A manager normally has the authority to punish an employee who breaks the rules or refuses to perform a reasonable assignment. There was a time when this included physical punishment in many settings.

[avote4commonsense]

Duplodon & Northernlurker talks sense. The OP doesn't. And the rest are following the morally politically correct bandwagon of hover mother parents who cannot think for themselves.

Hypocritically, and self righteously with the benefit of all that juicy hindsight, the Op even admits to smacking her first born child but now she even admits "I didn't smack his siblings born several years later, perhaps because I was a little older and more confident in my parenting abilities."

So she wants to now criminalise first time mums who probably love their children more than life itself but are making a few mistakes here and there as they struggle on their parenting journey. But its ok for her as she has now got through that bit herself and is alright now.

The world and particularly that of parenting and judging parents has just become a ridiculously over censored and paranoid place to be. Too many hover mothers on their holier than thou pedestals gossiping at the school gates and preaching how to parent. How can a parent relax these days and actually enjoy parenting ?

I love my children more than life itself. I work myself to the bone to give them every opportunity in life. I hug them, I kiss them, I tell them they are amazing (which of course they are), I correct them when I think they are rude, obnoxious and disrespectful and usually tell then calmly. Sometimes not so calmly. I admit to a bit of yelling when the parenting is falling on deaf ears and I am juggling 45 things at once and no one is listening and occasionally oh my goodness once in a while I might have smacked. Its rare, but its happened. Do I feel great no - Does my child feel great no - is anyone damaged by it ? No. Should we now be criminalised for it? I think I am just a mum - I am not a child abuser.

I think parents are starting to do far more damage to children with their horrendous over analysis of parenting and over focus on their kids. How anyone can compare smacking an office colleague and their own child needs their head examining. Would you hug and kiss your office colleague like your child then aswell?

Of course there will always be those "parents" (if you can call them parents) who systematically abuse, degrade and defile their children and if there was a god, wouldn't have been allowed to have them in the first place. This is where the focus of the law, education and social services should be - and the money spent.

When will people like the OP just come to your senses and let parents be parents so that children can be children. I despair.

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

What about changes in the law that limit the extent of the effects of smacking? Are those defensible? Similar arguments are made and have been made at every effort to limit parents' right to physically discipline their children. What about laws that say you can't leave a mark or you can't use an instrument? Are they defensible? If so, why is it not defensible to ban smacking altogether?

[MummyIsMyFavouriteName]

Some people's opinions on here worry me. The thought of smacking/hitting/physically abusing my DD (my beautiful, perfect little piece of me whose behaviour is a DIRECT reflection of my parenting) fills me with horror!

My parents used to threaten me with a smack (whether they did or not, I don't remember) but the thought terrified to the point of nightmares. I vividly remember these nightmares and hate that it tars my memory of my childhood. My partner used to be forced to bite a bar of soap and got hit with a slipper. When I found this out, I made it very clear that we would not use this and if his parents ever babysat and I found out they used either method they would have me to deal with (I may be small but I can be terrifying).

Smacking is unacceptable. When I see a parent in the street smacking their child, my urge is to grab the child and hug them. Then get someone much bigger than the adult to come and smack them, see how it makes them feel!

Let's think about what smacking teaches children. If someone does something you don't like, it's ok to hit them. So why are we surprised that children are hitting other children and animals?

[Thumbwitch]

Some children hit other children and animals and pretty much anything they feel like, regardless of whether or not they've ever been hit themselves.

DS2 is a case in point. He has, since he was able to move around independently, been a thrower and a hitter. Ds1 has never been allowed to hit back or do anything to him. Nor has DS2 been physically chastised. It hasn't stopped him, positive parenting has done nothing to diminish his violent tendencies - so when he turned 2 I gave DS1 permission to defend himself as necessary. At this point, DS2 took to biting again - Ds1 has had some very nasty bites but was not allowed to bite back - and we're still in the process of trying to stop him. Nothing is working. In the meantime, Ds1 is getting bruised and hurt daily by having things thrown at him (DS2 has a great throwing arm), being hit with toys, and still sometimes being bitten. Almost none of it is done in anger, DS2 just thinks he's playing.

Anyone got any bright ideas? He's not seen anyone hitting anyone else, it's just his nature.

[harryhausen]

Great post from avoteforcommonsense. I never smacked but I've had to leave the house and walk a few yards down the road before now to calm down.

Not related to smacking but I recently had a bit of a campaign raged against me in whispers at school by the hover mums. My crime? Letting my very mature nearly 10 yr old dd scoot home from school from an after school club, about half a mile down the road on a pavement with no roads to cross.

I guess that's for another thread though.

[dorisdog]

I completely agree. (and I doubt very much that it will turn into a mass criminalisation of parents, it'll just gently usher in new norms about parenting). And really impressed with Plaid Cymru for pressing ahead with this. Society moves on and progresses, and this represents positive progression. And I know it's not the whole picture either - there are many ways to be violent towards children - emotionally and physically - but the more we learn and practice other ways of communicating with and protecting children the better. And I'm not some bleeding heart liberal! I'm a stressed out single parent who does loads of stuff wrong! But let's progress, people - it's not going to do any of any harm...

[JocelynDaviesAM]

Thank you for commenting Nerf. It's great to hear feedback from people about this issue as it's something I care deeply about.

What I've heard from doctors, nurses, social workers, teachers and parenting educators is that the confusion about the law is making it harder to deliver messages about positive parenting methods. Clarifying the law would be an important first step in delivering change. And as I've said, changing the law would run no risk of criminalising good parents, it would just make it easier to convict those who have already been charged with common assault for hurting their children.

[JocelynDaviesAM]

Thank you for your comment littleducks. You're right in that the CPS charging standard wouldn't change if the law was changed. But in cases where parents have been charged with common assault, I think it's important that they should not be able to claim that what they've done is reasonable punishment.

In many ways this is a small change to the law as it stands, but I think it would send a positive message about parenting in Wales.

[northernlurker]

The claim regarding reasonable punishment is tested by a jury though. It's up to a jury to make that decision. Is the thinking that juries really do NOT recognise the distinction between a smack and abuse? Because there IS a difference.

'In many ways this is a small change to the law as it stands, but I think it would send a positive message about parenting in Wales.'

That's rather a worrying statement because you said in your original post that your intention was NOT to interfere with parenting - now it is? Because sending 'positive' messages implies you see a need to interfere. It also of course demonises parents such as myself who have smacked. And yet that's not the intention here? Mixed messages........

[Catsize]

As a barrister and a parent, I applaud this campaign.

[rachelhodgkin]

I’m a mother of three sons and I work part-time for Children Are Unbeatable!, the alliance of over 700 UK children's organisations supporting a legal ban on smacking in this country.

You can find more on the website www.childrenareunbeatable.org.uk. The FAQ page has answers to some of the objections that are posted here - though not the argument that "smacking isn't hitting" which to be honest I find baffling. Would you say a carer "smacking" an elderly demented person wasn't hitting them? It’s a very similar relationship to that between a parent and child.

It's been heartening to read so many posts from mothers opposed to smacking. You can support CAU! as an individual – contact me on [email protected] to do so – but I’m wondering if there should be a separate mum’s campaign. If anyone’s interested, let me know.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

changing the law would run no risk of criminalising good parents

Only because in your definition any parent who smacks is not a good parent.

But back in the real world it would criminalise most parents. Even those who decided to try other methods would have to be wary of being accused. Once you include smacking that's so gentle it leaves no mark then there's no way to prove your innocence.

I expect there'll be a free phone line to report your suspicions about your neighbours like there is for benefits.

Oh wait there is already isn't there.

[JulieMorganAM]

Great to read Jocelyn's article. Also interesting to read the debate about what hitting is and what smacking is and whether there's any difference. How can there be such a thing as a gentle smack? For me, it's still a question of a big person raising their hand against a small person. It seems to me that any use of physical force as a form of punishment is bound to give the wrong message -- and we know this from what children tell us. Let's hope we can get rid of the defence of 'reasonable punishment' in Wales.

Julie Morgan
Assembly Member for Cardiff North, National Assembly for Wales

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

But back in the real world it would criminalise most parents. Even those who decided to try other methods would have to be wary of being accused. Once you include smacking that's so gentle it leaves no mark then there's no way to prove your innocence.

Are you really saying most parents hit their children

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

And for the ones that do, they won't be criminalised if they stop doing it, which if it is against the law, one hopes they would stop. Hasn't that been the experience in countries, like Sweden, where the ban has been in place for a long time?

[Sheffmum1]

This subject seems to split the crowd!! I wonder if jocelyn Davies has ever had a child who bites/throws stuff at your head/ hurts their sibling/won't get dressed for the tenth time etc etc. Not saying it's acceptable but sometimes we come ALL close to smacking our kids!. I'm sorry but no one can judge parents in difficult circumstances and tell them what not to do!! How about encouraging ALL parents to complete a positive parenting course like triple P or the incredible years (see your health visitor for details- these are amazing courses!) . Banning things in a free speaking, westernised, democratic country is JUST WRONG!- let's teach our children to do it right by doing it right ourselves!

[Aurestel79]

Controversial. It's probably an old argument I'm putting forward, but when I was young my mum gave the odd smack on the bum when she was at the end of her tether. .. and no trauma from it! Actually, looking back, I'd say she was perfectly right.
Would I do the same with my kids? Probably yes. We're already too soft and over controlled by children (I'm a teacher, I know how it feels. ..) but as a mother I think that if you don't discipline your children their life is going to be harder. Mind, I don't condone constant smacking but the odd one on the bum... could help.
just my humble opinion

[bigpigsmum]

A number of years ago myself & hubby chastised a relative (and spouse) for their non smacking values towards their child. Pointing out they were storing up problems in later life. 'We don't smack'. Was their response.

15 years later the child is unruly, disrespectful and down right rude. Two years ago when this same child had an outburst the mother was heard to say 'Someone please smack him one.'

She is a teacher.

Not one to boast, but our own child is much better behaved. With reference to the animal kingdom, even a pride of lions will administer the odd flick of the paw to the young ones who step out of line - our DS is now 8 and I really can't remember the last time he was in receipt of a short, sharp, slap on his hand. Perhaps it was well before he was in full possession of the English language and able to communicate and understand.

No-one should be bullied, but with children boundaries need to be made early and as with lions, the young need to be drawn back into line for the benefit of the whole pride. Otherwise the end result will be a nation of adults who will sadly see themselves beyond the law, perpetuated by 'do-gooders' who 'do not smack'.

[VIPmarya212]

And what about parents rights? When children grow up & abuse parents? Lol.
I don't want to sound rude but i think the government should mind their own business as most parents know what they are doing & want the best for their kids & should be able to deal with their kids the way they want to because they want their kids to grow up to be good people. Unless ofcourse if some parents are just abusing their children unnecessarily or after consuming alcohol, then those parents should be charged

[chez2788]

Just because they didn't smack their child doesn't mean that's the reason for his behaviour as he grew up. Maybe their alternative discipline methods were not strong enough. Everything isn't black and white, I know of people who were smacked and were still unruly and disrespectful.

[SconeRhymesWithGone]

Those of you who have posted along the lines of the government not dictating how you raise your child, do you agree with the limitations on corporal punishment that are already in place? Or would you take this governmental laissez-faire argument back to when you could beat your child with a belt or cane? Because if you agree that the state can ban these actions, then why is it an intrusion to ban smacking altogether?